The original Jerry Jones & Donald Trump | Engel Angle

My daughter recently was told that she was selected to join the National Honor Society.
And while I did not tell her this, my first thought was, huh, I wonder how much that costs.
So, I recently had a phone conversation with my father, and I said, hey dad, good news.
Your granddaughter was selected to join the National Honor Society, to which he said,
the National Honor Society, huh? How much does that cost?
Mack Engel, footworth star telegram, Engel Engel podcast here in the Sunset Lounge.
Guest of this episode is award-winning sports columnist and published author, Mr. Mike
Vaccaro of the New York Post. Mike has been in the thick of it in the New York sports scene
for more than 20 years, and he recently has a new book out detailing a man who was Jerry Jones
before Jerry Jones, a man whose personality and influence was so big that you can see his
fingerprints all over a certain president who goes by the name of Trump. George Steinbrenner.
Now, George Steinbrenner died several years ago, but when George Steinbrenner owned the New
York Yankees, he was, by far and away, the most influential, visible, and controversial
owner in all of sports. And so much of what you see now with the Dallas Cowboys and Jerry Jones,
and to a lesser extent, but still an extent with Donald Trump, George Steinbrenner started back
when he bought the New York Yankees in the 70s and really in his heyday in the 80s and certainly
in the 90s. One detail about George Steinbrenner that people forget is that he was suspended for life
by Major League Baseball. And it was a detail that was covered in this book that I had completely
forgotten about. And I certainly remember George Steinbrenner's controversial and very colorful
owners tenure as the owner of the New York Yankees, but there were other parts including this one
that I had forgotten. Well, Mike in his new book, The Bosses of the Bronx covers all of these details
as well as certainly the transition of ownership of the Yankees from George Steinbrenner to his two
sons Hal and Hank that have pursued it, pardon me, that have been much, much quieter than George
Steinbrenner's tenure as owner of the Yankees. It's a fascinating book and really the part that
interested me so much was the influence that George had on the current owner of the Dallas Cowboys
and certainly the president of the United States because George knew Donald Trump when Donald
Trump was a real estate guy who aspired to own professional sports franchises specifically in the
NFL or potentially even Major League Baseball back in the 80s. So without any further ado, please welcome
Mike Vicaro. So Mike, when I wrote down all this, I've got a list of questions for you. Anytime I
do this, I try to, and I've got your book. By the way, this was really good. I have not finished it.
I have not finished it yet, but I want to thank you for sending it to me. This was really good and
I learned a lot of things about George and certainly Hank that I had no clue about. But having
gone through the excruciating process of writing a book myself, one question I always ask
authors when the book is done is do you like it? Do you like it? You know, Mike, I do. It's my
fourth book. I haven't written one in a number of years. I was fortunate enough to be able to write
three and five years splurge about 15 years ago, which is I wouldn't recommend that paste anybody.
I like those books a lot. I think by the end, I just was, I needed a break and a breather. And I
think that allows me to allow me to appreciate not just the opportunity to write this book, but
the process of doing it too. I mean, I just, I just really thoroughly enjoyed the research,
the reporting, the writing was really fun. But I wanted to write, we ultimately became the idea
was cyberder from literally the moment that he bought the team and then on toward, you know,
Hank for a little bit now how owning the team. And that really appealed to me because just a lot of
ways, just the difference between the Yankees I cover now and the Yankees I covered when I first
came to town when George was still pretty active and the Yankees that I grew up with, not necessarily
rooting for, but following because it was impossible not to follow the Yankees if you were reading the
post and the daily news and news day and the times every day as you could when I grew up and,
you know, just the the magnificent chaos that rained for years, for decades. And it wasn't
all George doing the chaos, but he always orchestrated it. There was a really famous
picture of him in a fellow illustrator photo illustration of him in New York magazine years ago,
where he's got like, he's like a marionette with like the strings above Yankee Stadium,
which is really what he was. And so all the craziness that followed at least was impartially on his
watch. And so being able to record all of that, go back and revisit it kind of like, you know,
introduce fresh generations to people who only knew George Steinbrunner as this kindly old man,
you know, toward the end. That was all fun. And so as a result, you know, and it's interesting,
Mack, because, you know, I know you go through this harrowing process when all of a sudden the box
arrives and there's your there's your supply of books. Now you can actually read what what the rest
of the world is going to read. You know, until that moment, the only people who who have read this
or you, maybe, you know, maybe a family member, your wife or a friend or whoever, maybe you're
definitely reddener, hopefully. And then the select, and then of course, the select group of people
that are going to blurb the book. And you know, it's interesting. We still haven't found a book where
there's a, where the blurb goes, this book sucks. You know, they're always, they're always safely in
scouts in the hands of people that you know are going to be nice to you, right? So, so this is the
first time that you that you have this book that other people with critical eyes are going to read.
And I guess, I mean, I would not be telling the truth if I didn't say, when I read it again,
I did read it again, come for the cover when it arrived. It wasn't just a cool thing because
always a cool thing to crack open the spine of your new book, but I really did like it. I'm
not going to say it's better or worse than any of the other things I've done. I do think it's
better though. So, as you can imagine where I live, we are heavily influenced by similar
character, almost caricature in Jerry Jones. And as I sat here reading this and contemplating
what to ask you, I thought, are the New York Yankees the Dallas Cowboys? Are the Yankees the Cowboys?
I think it's interchangeable. You know, it's interesting that they're sort of business partners,
but the legends corporate that they, that they co-own, I mean, it means our press room foods
better than most places. It costs more, but it tastes better. But yeah, they're, they're,
there are a lot of similarities. And yeah, I think you've got to start with the fact that you
have a dominant figure at the center of it. You know, certainly, if we're talking about this time
letters of George's time, hell is still a dominant voice. He just doesn't speak as much as his
father did. But look, and I've been around Jerry Jones enough, enough of those crazy post-game
and prompter press conferences to know that if you want, if you want a pretty good column,
especially if you're coming from out of town and you're not used to it, you know what to find.
I mean, you know, you know what to find. It's usually with him. Same thing, you know,
when, when, if you never get to do a, do a trip for a next game to Dallas and, you know,
Mark Cuban was on his bike, his exercise bike, his exercise bike and wanted to hold court.
You're probably going to get a column out of that too, right? I will say that I think George was
probably a little crazier in that, even when he was like in his, in his prime. I mean, he would
just say and do the, just off the wall things that some of them, I think, were designed to
get a message to somebody. Some of them were because he was, as much of a lunatic fan,
as any of the callers to sports radio. And part of his, this is what his personality was. He was
a larger than life guy who was a whole life wanted to be the big guy in the big town and wanted to
get the good table at the 21 club and ultimately did all of that. And I think that that,
yeah, I'm sure probably locally Jerry's probably looked at the same way, you know, and,
and I know that, you know, he's still going strong in terms of, you know, shaking things up,
you know, but I, you know, I think the thing that I took away from that documentary from last
summer was that you forget, and it's the same thing with George too, I think, to a degree.
You forget that look, I mean, they didn't just show up and win these teams in a blind lottery.
I mean, they had done previously, they had done well previously enough in their lives and other
businesses to be able to own the Yankees, own the Cowboys. And look, I mean, Jerry's investment
in the Cowboys was a lot steeper than the 168,000 that George's initial investment was with the Yankees.
But, you know, these were, these are smart guys who sometimes their mouth gets in the way. I get it.
But, you know what, I mean, I know for the Yankees, there was always a, you know, a genuine love-hate
relationship that extended to both ends of the extreme. And at least from a distance, it seems
like that's certainly the case with what Jerry Jones.
So, in keeping along the lines of the Cowboys and the Yankees being interchangeable,
George Steinbender, whom you knew was a larger than life personality. And to me, I see a lot
of similarities to Jerry Jones a lot. Are they the same guy?
You know, a lot of ways, I think they're very similar, Mack, I do. And look, I mean, you know,
I think now, I don't think I'm speaking out of school, even though I'll cover the Cowboys,
it seems like a lot of the Cowboys problems, at least directly or indirectly, can be tied to
the fact that he's very involved still, right? I mean, his opinions in the franchise still
matter, sometimes often not always for the good, right? And there were long stretches of time
for the, when George was going through the phase when he was most closely resembles what I see from
afar with Jerry Jones, was in the 80s. And look, the Yankees won more games than anybody in the 80s
and didn't come close to winning a championship. That probably sounds very familiar, right?
Is that right? Yeah, they won more games than any baseball team in the 80s and they, you know,
because they're their their their last championship was 78. They had really good teams in the early
part of the 80s before it fell out. But, you know, in those years, it was just, you know,
the division or you didn't, or you went home and they finished second a lot. And, you know, they,
they just never could get back because, you know, George had to do crazy things like walking into
Luke, Luke Panell's office one day and say, I just wanted the pendant when I got your Steve
trout and saying, with a straight face and, you know, what's Panell going to do? But I'll want to
get a baseball bat to his own skull to take himself out of his misery. And, you know, you could see,
right? I mean, if I told you that that that that that that Jerry Jones had a similar conversation
last week with Brian Schott and I'm really surprised you wouldn't. No, he's done it. Maybe not Steve
trout, but maybe maybe Steve trout. Well, the one thing I heard of George did this to Stump Merrill,
Billy Martin. He, Jerry, what Jerry will do is every now and then one of the big misnomers about
their head coach of the Cowboys, they have way more influence than people think, way more
influence. But every now and then Jerry will do something to whomever specifically the coach
and remind you I'm running the team. And if I want Greg Hardy on this team, he's on the team.
If I want to do this draft pick, that's what we're doing. Did George do that to GM's or managers?
Well, he did he did a lot more bluntly. He would just fire them. And that would be that would be the
mess. You know, I mean, again, you know, people just think of George, the, the, the, you know,
vunkular, you know, older man who let Joe, Joe Tories stay on the job for 12 years and Brian
Cashman stay on the job for even longer. But that wasn't him, you know, when he was at the peak of
his powers, you know, he hired him, he hired and fired Billy Martin five times. And he would have
fired him to six, except Billy and conveniently died before he could. He was going to be hired
that season at some point. There was no question in anybody's mind that that's what would have
happened. And it would have kept happening. I mean, he went through, you know, different iterations
of Luke Vannello three times. I mean, you know, stick Michael is credited with saving the
Yankees when George was suspended the second time. But that was his second time as a GM. He'd
been the manager twice. I mean, that's what George did. I think that's probably where the
fundamental difference is because if I'm not mistaken, the one thing that that Jerry is is
almost to a fault is he may be, he may be keeps a coach around a year too long as opposed to,
you know, getting rid of him that way. But just in addition to the firing, there would also be
the torture that would come before, you know, and like he would say that he would say that that that
that that that his biggest regret as a owner was to fire Dick Haliser when he did, which is after
in one year. And all Haliser did was went 103 games, a manager of the year. And none of those other
teams in the great 70s teams when nearly as many as 103, that team did. He got fired after getting
swept down the playoffs by the Royals. And the precursor to that was they were scuffling in August
and they lost a big lead to the Orioles before they before they rebounded. And George was on
was on Haliser every day about he was how he wasn't Earl Weaver. He just wasn't Earl Weaver, you
know, it was because Baltimore's, you know, Baltimore's got this veteran guy, he's clever, he's smart
and we got a rookie manager. And you know, later on, I think George reluctantly offered up that
he realized he was probably in the wrong about start by about Haliser because one day he was in
Seattle and they were playing the Mariners and they were managed by more morey Wills. And he's told
the riders said, you know, I think I got a good shot this weekend. It's it's me who gets another
rookie manager. I think it's more my speed. You know, and obviously he got the ultimate revenge on
George by by going to Kansas City and winning a championship with them during the eighties,
which was a time which was a vast rice bell for for the Steinbretters. So, you know, that was the
I mean, the games he would play with with Billy Martin were, you know, sometimes I look back on
anything, it's almost sadistic, you know, but because he knew that Billy loved that job so much,
that no matter how he treated him, no matter how many times he fired him, he was going to be able to
bring him back. And then make a few dollars by doing a Miller Lite commercial or by doing some
vaudeville acts in the press conference. I mean, do yourself a favor and go to YouTube and and
type Steinbrett Martin Miller Lite and you'll find the greatest 30 second commercial that's ever been
done. Especially if you remember that this was like two days after the after after one had been
fired by the other and then rehired by him. So it's just it's great. So, so I mean, when you get to
the level level of mania, I don't think that Jerry Jones actually kind of comes close to him and that,
but that's that's just the silliness. That's the, you know, I say it's silliness, but it's the to
me is the fun part of the book is going through all this manner of silliness that really did kind
of go along with all the other stuff with the Yankees, which includes a lot of winning through the
years. Let's be honest, but also a lot of nuttiness. So having grown up and lived in New York City for
as long as you did the greater New York area, and now covered it for as long as you have, you've
seen these giant larger than life personalities because of the the amount of attention and
amount of coverage they get. They just sort of kind of grow organically. And one of them that
somebody mentioned to me and I didn't even think about it. How long this particular figure has been
in the public spotlight long before he got the job he's in now. And that's Donald Trump. Now I do
not want to be at the behest of the people who run this podcast. This is not a political platform.
Sure. No, I understand. Donald Donald's personality, whatever you want to say about him, he was a
prominent figure. You didn't back in the 80s and people in sports were introduced to him because
of his famous handling of his USFL franchise. And as I sat there and I read about George
and his personality and his love of the spotlight, were they the same guy?
You got that so right? It's amazing. It's funny. George got a call sometime in the early 80s.
Somebody wanted to see if he was willing to buy the sell the Yankees for about $150 million.
And he said, nope, not interested. And so Donald Trump hung up the phone and then he bought
the generals in the USFL instead. So Trump and they always fancy himself at one day maybe being
able to take on the Yankees if he didn't pursue other interests, which he wanted him doing.
But if you read the book, I mean, and this kept coming back to me time after time after time.
And look, they were close friends. We've seen recently a letter that surfaced of
Simoner telling Trump that he hoped someday he runs a president. But Trump was always in
Simoner's owner's box. I mean, his owner's box for big games were these bold face to all the
who's who of New York. And of course, there was never a who a year who in New York, the Donald
Trump in the 80s. And you know, when you go through the book and it's been especially the quotes
from like the 80s and the 90s that have been out there for a while, you realize that Donald
wasn't as influenced by him. I think he studied him. I do. Because a lot of, if you close your
eyes, after you've read a couple of these Simoner quotes from 1978 or 1981, it sounds like they came
from Trump a lot of ways. Talking about the Yankees as opposed to other things. But you know, just
enough bluster to have that front, but also enough confidence and enough, look, I mean,
George could be funny. He wasn't going to, you know, that's not the reason he showed a bunch
side-felders setting out live. He didn't get those gigs because he was funny, but he appreciated
humor, I guess is the best way to put it. And so, you know, all of these things made those quotes,
you know, hold up 20 and 30 and 50 years later. And I think that's, I think Trump paid attention
to that. I do. I think that there are a lot of times now a subsequent writing the book that
I'll hear something that the president says. And I'll laugh because I can hear it in George's
voice. Or maybe it's the Larry David interpretation of George's voice, but it's in one of the voices.
And I think there's, yeah, I definitely think there was, there was a clear connection in terms
of Donald studying George's every move. And to the point where I think he actually adopted some
of his mannerisms also. So, when you know a subject as well as you did before you took this book on,
that leads itself to a lot of advantages. Obviously, you have an innate familiarity with the
topic that you're going into. Sure. But you're going to ultimately stumble across an anecdote,
something that you just missed. Maybe you even forgot, but likely you just didn't know what's
the one or two, Mike, that you came across that just absolutely made you stop and said, I'll be
damned. I had no idea that that that happened. Well, that's the question. Two ways. One is one that
really blew me away. Just began to, you know, see why in a second. And the other one is one that
actually was in the middle of any of that. I just forgot the details until I went back and I
started it and kind of, you know, sometimes you spark your own memory. And the first one is,
you know, George's renowned in the 80s was to do this all the time. He got rid of a boatload of
all sort of future all stars. I mean, just unloaded Willie McGee and Fred McGriff and Doug Dreyback
and a bunch of others, you know, J. butler. And invariably, you know, you'll be hard pressed to
think of who the player was in return because they were, you know, really forgetable. A lot of them
never play again. Love Ken Phelps is bad. Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, your Frankenstanger was not
pleased with that trade as we both know. And so there was this random story. I just saw an old
New York post like 1982. I want to say Moriel and somebody wrote it. And they were quoting this
player for the Nashville sounds who was, she just went off and he said, you're the promised
organization. He said, if you're too good, they're going to trade you. And if we're not as good
as they are, you're going to bring, they're going to bring somebody else to block you.
And that was a first baseman named Buck Shoaltor who later on, of course, went on to manage the
Yankees. And it's funny when I uncovered that, I was like, I've never seen this before. And I
actually called Buck. And I said, I said, did you really say this? And he's like, yes,
and it was true. I'm like, I, that's great. Thank you. And so, so that's in the book. And I'm
pretty proud of that one. But the other one, and Mac, this was, this was, this was maybe the most
the proudest day in the history of American sports riding, I would think, because there was a,
it was the last day of spring training in 1999. And Hadekai Arabu, who was like a ballet
who'd import from Japan, I covered him with the Rangers. Oh, sure. So, you know, and yes,
you know, he was, he was, he would have these games where he really did look like Nolan Ryan.
But most of the time, he looked like, you know, David Clyde. And he, I love David Clyde.
I just love that story for when I was a kid with the baseball cards. But the, but,
but he was always overweight. And George, of course, was always a banana about the players and
being where he was a football coach at heart. And he smoked. And I remember he smoked.
Yeah, he smoked. Yeah, which is hilarious, right? And probably, and sadly,
probably to explain why he's no longer with us, one of the reasons. But, you know,
so this day, he had a terrible day fielding doing pitcher fundamentals. And in the,
it was during a game, and it just, you know, after the game, we got Steinmeier and Hadekai's
name of Arabu. And he called him, and I can say this, like, I can say this for him. He called
him a fat pussy toad. And of course, now, when you say it, you know exactly what you mean,
right? You mean like the green ooze that comes from an infection, right? And I mean,
how great is Steinmeier to have, you know, to be able to text me again. But the problem is,
we open it back to the press box and we're like, oh, wait a second. This looks like another
word. I don't think we can use. And so this, and for the next couple of hours, and every
newspaper covering the Yankees, the writers were having the same discussions with their editors.
And so, like, I think it was the daily news with ellipses. So it was fat ellipses tone, right?
I think the news they did too. Jack Curry, at the time, insisted that, that, that, that they named
that they go, P-U-S, hyphen, S-Y. So pussy looks that one. They won't know. Right, they won't know.
The post, I wasn't, I wasn't at the post then. But the post decided to go with pussy and
in parentheses, rhymes with pussy. I was the star ledger then. And this is why this is such a great
memory to throw back. I was working with a great Tim Brown, who was one of my favorite colleagues
ever. And he's got a great book on Nolan Ryan coming out, as you probably know, coming soon.
And we, we were having this discussion among ourselves. What do we do? We call the office.
And so we have to understand this is 1999. The star ledger had just recently begun,
when became a pretty close partnership with the producers of the sopranos.
Because the star ledger was the paper that Tony got at the end of his driveway every day.
And so because of that, we kind of knocked down one wall of decor, I guess you would say,
because we actually referred to Vincent Pompatiero by his nickname, which was big,
the other pronunciation of, of, of what that word looks like. And so they said, so we had no
problem right in the word. They just had spell it differently. And so that's how we came up P-U-S-S-I-E
because that was a different spelling than the character's name. And that ended one of the
great days in American journalism. And I remembered that, but like going back and reading
like the stuff we wrote and all of a sudden, and then talking to Brownie and talking to a few other
guys that day, they were all having the same conversations. And you know, I, again, this isn't
a book about sports writers. There's some, there's some, there's some passages in there about
Steinbrunner's relationship with the press and what the press meant to the building of the
Steinbrunner brand and mythology because there has to be. But that's a story that I think even
an accountant or a teacher or a painter could probably appreciate because it's just insane. And it's
it's kind of like the, the, the, the, the copyrighted insanity that was part of every day when you
were covering George Steinbrunner in his prime. Hello, it's Mike Riner of your dark companion here.
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So when you look back on this and I've had this discussion with a lot of people about Jerry Jones
and I have my own thoughts and feelings about Jerry's influence and impact. Not just on the cowboys
or the NFL, but the American sports scene in general. And what I saw when I was reading this was
I forgot just how much people hated George Steinbrunner. Oh, yeah. I just, I forgot about it,
but at the same time, I thought as I was reading it, much in the same way that I think Jerry has
been very good for the NFL. I thought ultimately George was really good for Major League baseball.
Was there no question? No, I agree with you on that one, Mack. Look,
and this comes up every couple of years when it's when people talk about the Hall of Fame,
you know, and his son says, you can't write the history of football, but the history of baseball,
excuse me, without including a couple of chapters about George Steinbrunner and to me if you could
do that, then he probably belongs in the Hall of Fame for whatever else he did during his time.
And I would tend to agree with that, but I said earlier about one of the really nice things about
this book is I do think it's it's introducing the vintage George to people who just weren't born then
or just weren't old enough to appreciate it then, or frankly, to people who definitely went through
it and have recency bias and just amnesia about the way it was. I had a really interesting talk one
time years ago with with Jim Dolan who owns the Rangers in the next. You get to talk to Jimmy Dolan?
Yeah, I know it's it's actually one of the it's one of the bold face items in my resume because he
only talks about once every five or six years. Yeah, I was never necessarily one of his feet. You know
what you know, I think got it. He saw me in a Rangers game one time and he loved the fact that I
covered the Rangers. So he just called me and said, he want to talk and so he did and he said,
yes, so anyway, we of course, we we melted at the post as you might imagine. We had we had video
long before we were doing a lot of video. He was it was a big deal and I remember one time when
the cameras were off. So it was on the record, but it wasn't part of the interview and I said,
he said, let me ask you question. I said, what Jim? He said, if you ever seen an owner who was treated
this badly by his fans, he's I'm serious. He said, I don't think there's ever been an owner who
who gets who he was the crap I hear at the garden all the time. And I let him talk for a while and
I smiled. I'm like, well, you know, I'll do respect, but you know, George Simoner makes you seem
like the most popular guy in town. And he said, what are you talking about? When Simoner died,
they treated him like a king. I said, yeah, when he took me, you know, at the end, I said, but,
you know, you know, occasionally going to guy who yells out, hey, Dolan, and you know, that makes
you mad. You know, George would go to Yankee Stadium a couple times and they would chant his name,
and they chant either one unprinciple name before the name or one unprinciple name after the name.
And that's 40,000 people chanting it over and over again. I mean, it would happen the day when
Reggie came back and he don't run to show up. George happened later on when he got thrown out
of baseball and Yankee Stadium starts to erupted cheers and and goodbye George. And I said, you
never had that before. And so to his credit, Dolan talked about that and he smiled. He said, uh,
well, maybe they'll love me when I'm dead. And actually, what Dolan has proven is that actually,
oh, this doesn't be that drastic because he's found the same blueprint George did. You win some
games. All of a sudden, you know, the most terrible owner in town anymore, you know? And that's
that you know, winning as you know is a, you can always win a Super Bowl next year, you know,
to people who are going to be crying, you're complaining too much about the owner. I mean,
they'll dare that's what winning does. And, you know, winning changes a lot, you know, George
became a lot more patient later on, you know, when his team was winning a lot because, you know,
your, your, your trigger finger finger tends to be a little less itchy that way.
So when we talked about George Steinbreder and there's a detail here that I had completely
forgotten and I've, I've, you know, I'm 52 years old. I was an enormous baseball fan in the 80s.
I still love the sport. I really liked the changes they've made to the game. It's made a lot
too. I really appreciate it. Love it. Yeah. And it's been, it was really fun to read some of these
things because I had just forgotten them. And the one detail that you obviously have to go into
that I had completely forgotten about, George Steinbreder was suspended and basically evicted from
Major League Baseball. I completely forgot about that. That Fay Vincent, who clearly didn't like him,
had a reason to, to go in there and get rid of him. And this was not some case of March shot,
like what they had done with her when she had made her fit famous comment about Hitler was good
in the beginning and the beginning and the beginning. Yeah, the beginning. But this was a different
kind of deal. Why do you think when we evaluate George Steinbreder for those of us left who do
why do you think this detail to his timeline suddenly just gets sort of sanded over and forgotten.
Unlike, let's say, and I know it's, it's not apples to apples that the Pete Rose situation.
I can't figure out when we think about George, we don't think about the fact he was kicked out
of Major League Baseball. Mac, you actually bring up a great point. And I think the rose thing is
a perfect allegory and I actually use it really kind of to take to close the books. You haven't
gotten there yet. So you're so you're so you're so in tune with the book that you know how you know
the ending. Because because because we have what I touched on earlier with with with how it talks
about his dad and the whole thing. I actually asked George what time do you think people on the
whole thing? And he said I do not. He said the whole thing should be people who played in uniforms
after men who were ties to the ballpark. I don't think he believed that, but that's what he told me.
And for many years, I mean, many years and I wrote a lot, I got a lot of mileage riding columns.
There's no way that George Simon ever logs in the Hall of Fame. You know, my friend and colleague
Joel Sherman says it this way. He says, you know, once he's mentioned his par, two suspensions is over
par. You can't get the whole family for shooting over par. And you know the fed and the the the
ironic part of it is, you know, look, George was a dominant finger for the Yankees for 37 years.
And yet the two prosperous times of their career both occurred when he was in absentia. The first
time was when he was thrown out because he legally contributed to the Nixon campaign. That cost him
two years, but during those two years, one of the guys he brought over in the original partnership
group, Gabe Paul, very accomplished baseball, man, built the first iteration of championship Yankees
under George. You know, he traded for Chris Chabblis and Dick Tidrow and he traded for Bobby
Barnes and that yielded another trade. Mickey River is in figure row and Willie Randolph and
he built that team when George was gone. And they went through championships when George came back.
Go figure. And later on, the second one will discuss, you know, Gene Michael, another guy from Ohio,
you know, was was was installed. And he was the guy who made sure that the the core four plus
Bernie Williams weren't traded for Frank Viola and on some trade deadline whim, like certainly George
would have done had he been around. And you know, that and that's the thing to me the same
the same way that I did a 180 on Rose when I came to the conclusion that a I revere the Hall of
Fame. I've probably been there seven times in my life and my wife won't go with me anymore because
she knows that I'm on a guy who just breezes through the Hall of Fame. I read even the stuff I've
read on past visits. I mean, it's an all day thing for me. It's a pilgrimage for me when I go now,
I go with my friends and only the friends who are baseball fans because even my other friends who
like baseball get tired after a while. So I have like two or three guys that I know will go with me
and will be equally invested in their time and their walls and Cooper's town. But it's a museum
and it's a testament to the game's history and look history isn't always about great stuff. I mean,
a responsible history book is going to mention, oh, by the way, there was slavery in the United
States for a while, right? That's a that's not a great thing. I mean, you don't whitewash the
history. And so in in in in in baseball, you know, there really should be, you know, an accounting
for things that did not go the way they should have gone. That's heroes for sure. And I've often
thought that the best way to solve that, if and when he ever gets in the Hall, I think he probably
will at some point, but not right now, is that when they give the plaque, you know, half of it is
about why he why he married into being here in the 4,000 hits, the, you know, the most games played
all that stuff, which is certainly Hall of Fame worthy. But the other half of the plaque has to
detail why he wasn't in the Hall of Fame, what he did, handled on the game, put that all on the
plaque. And I think that's what you have to do for Georgetown, but her too is look, I mean,
this guy won seven championships on his watch. Every other executive combined that's in the Hall of
Fame have won nine. So I mean, there's no question. And I must say you credit George for those seven
championships, but he was right in the check. So you got to get a little bit of credit. But also,
look, I mean, the stuff that he did to get thrown out of baseball, that should be in there also,
because they were both, they were both important, you know, they were both important to get suspended.
And oh, by the way, you know, he didn't argue at the time. I mean, now he was able to argue it later
on because he thought he was, he didn't realize what he was really accepting a lifetime ban when he
did. He just, he was afraid the USOC that he had just become influential with was going to,
was going to take less kindly to the word suspension didn't realize that expulsion was
not so great either. So he wound up being one of the bad of that too for a while. But just think
about the, the, the nuttiness of the spirit of the spirit thing. You're not the only guy for whom
that's like a footnote that's kind of been forgotten because I was talking to somebody else about
that incident not long ago. And they said, yeah, the spirit, of course, they had been in the book yet,
but then the spirit didn't, didn't George like hire a private eye or something to like to, like,
get, like, get, get, get dirt on, on Winfield. That's his best player. That's crazy. I'm like, yeah,
that's crazy. But in higher private eye, he, he, he, he, he got involved with this, with this low
rent, low rent gambler hustler, you know, who was a disgruntled employee for the Winfield foundation.
And this guy was right out of a running play. I mean, it's, it's incredible that he, you know, he,
this is the guy that, that, that, that led him by the, by the scruff of the neck out of baseball.
He doomed him. How he spear a, you know, and of course, what's hilarious is that the day he died,
the day he died wasn't hilarious, but, you know, you know, college in the New York Post, I was
on vacation in Belgium with my wife. Of course, it doesn't matter where you are in the world,
that George Simon who dies, you're going to write that day, right? So my boss tracks me down,
you know, I, you know, I want to, and then it's hilarious to go back and see the, you know,
the tributes. This is everybody, you know, I don't know what it is. One of one, you know,
Reggie Jackson, just the greatest of all time. And the final quote was, how he spear, I'm glad he's dead.
So how he plans on taking that bridge into the next lifetime too.
Because I, I've become a big person, someone who desperately believes these Hall of Fame's
and museums are there to chronicle the history of whatever topic it is. And you can't tell the
stories without George Steinberg. You can't tell the stories without Pete Rose good in the
bad. And that's the part that sort of irritates me, which is just put them in, but tell the whole
story, tell the whole story, tell the whole story. Yeah. And, and the part that irritates me is when
I hear these former players who get their feelings or that they're not in the Hall of Fame say,
I don't care anymore. Dude, you would chew broken glass for a month to get in the Hall of Fame.
So don't insult my intelligence. Like I hear Kurt Shelling say that I'm like, you're full of crap.
Right. Like you totally want it. And that's okay. But it's been one of my feelings of frustration
with the Hall of Fame and some voters. I'm like, come on. Who are we? What are we doing here? Because
there's one thing to your point. This is a big deal for these people. And it can have a significant
financial impact on their lives. If they do get in by being able to write H-O-F on their
autograph. And I, you know, I remember Michael Irving explaining that to me and it completely changed
my attitude. I believe that. And I understand that. All right. I got a couple more questions for you.
One of them. You mentioned it briefly about Larry David and Seinfeld and its influence on
the Yankees. And there's one part to this that I think people forgot is that George Steinbrenner
famously hosted an episode of Saturday Night Live right after the Cincinnati Reds won the World
Series. Same day. They won the same day. That's right. That's right. That's right.
15 minutes later. They were on S&L. They're on there. And during that episode, George Steinbrenner
wore a bra to make it look like he had breast implants during a sketch with the late Phil Hartman.
Did all of this lampooning and making fun of the Yankees is more so Seinfeld than SNL?
Did it ever work against Steinbrenner and the Yankees? The fact that they put themselves
in a position basically to be material for Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld?
I don't think so because I think that by this time,
everybody involved with the Yankees starting with the owner. I realized that this was a pretty
famous brand. And I would argue that the interlocking NY is, you know, name me a more famous logo
in the world than that. The only one I can think of is maybe the Dallas Cowboys star.
I think they're one in one A for sure.
No, but I think the Yankees, I think the NY is bigger than any of them.
Yeah, because you just tend to see, you know, you see a lot of Yankees at.
You don't necessarily see, so that's more ubiquitous that way, right?
So they, and then it's funny, they stole that logo from the New York Police Department.
That was the original NYPD logo, so I go figure. But yeah, I think that to me, that was one of the more,
that was the real fun parts about doing this book, too, was was was chronicling all the
all the times he dabbled in pop culture. Because you think about this guy being kind of a state.
You know, it's really funny when he first took the job, took the team. He was 42 and he was
hailed by the New York Press as his young breath of fresh air. And one of one of the New York writers
certainly to his last year, great, actually, say that Woodstock comes to New York. How about that?
And I think that was probably the last time that George Staminer was ever identified as a,
you know, flower-powered child or something. But, but he also, you know, like this guy who
always understood with New York, you know, the first time he heard New York New York was in a
thundering PA system in Yankee Stadium, and he heard the words and he said, that's me.
Small town blues melting away and he's like, a number one top of the hill, that's the Yankees.
And yeah, that seems ultra serious and silly, but it's also he understood the silliness and he
understood that you could actually, you know, benefit and that the brand would benefit from that, you know.
I mean, I think, you know, forget the Larry David as George stuff, which, you know, it was,
was funny, but, you know, there were other Yankees who appeared when Christmas, when
Costanza was a traveling secretary and they, and he screwed up their reservations in Milwaukee.
And that's the, that makes the Yankees seem human, I think, right? Yeah.
Or at least, you know, willing to, to lampoon themselves. So I think he appreciated that.
You know, I remember when the, when the mini series came out, Jonathan Mallor had a great book
a couple of years ago, ladies and gentlemen, the blogs is burning and that became a mini series on,
on ESPN, John Traitoro played, played Billy Martin. All of her plot played George.
All of her plots are pretty reputable actor, pretty distinguished actor. I mean,
he's done a lot of things. And I remember, I wish, I got a hold of him during that time to ask
about and he said, you know, it's funny. I was a Red Sox fan. I grew up in Canada, but I'm a Red Sox fan.
So I was looking forward to just making fun of this guy for, you know, the five days of the shoot.
But like, then I started looking to the character and, you know, I just really enjoyed it.
It was a really challenging role. And, you know, you look back at the series. It's almost frightening.
How much he looks like. I mean, how much he channels him. I mean, just his thing. And, you know,
and George, you know, George loves that stuff, you know, I mean, he was, he always,
he was always appreciative of being able to, to extend boundaries beyond, you know,
what was normal, what was expected, you know, and, and, you know, he wasn't ever going to go nuts.
But, you know, what, you know, he was before. He was another great thing that I just,
that it just occurred to me that, that I was amazed to see is, you know, the earliest defender,
believe it or not, in public of Mike Keckitsch and Fritz Peterson, when they,
most 1973 thing ever, swapped wives and swapped families. Early in George's first year with
the Yankees, you know, a bunch of, a bunch of, a fans were getting on Keckitsch's first,
outing with the Yankees. That's spring. He was getting slaughtered. And Stymeter gave back to
the fans, you know, I don't think Stymeter probably was approving of that lifestyle too much. But,
you know, he was his player. He was wearing the Yankee uniform. You know, he, he can surprise you.
And, and I think that's certainly the part with the pop culture stuff that, that, that,
I think he's really cool and was really a lot of fun to do. And, you know, Larry David invited
him to, to be on the episode himself. This is a cameo. And Delight took even greater delight in
the fact that Stymeter was so bad an actor that they couldn't use it. And it was available on YouTube,
though, if you want to look it up. Oh, I didn't know that. I've heard that. Yeah, I've heard
it. He heard him, him and, him and, him and the lame badass have a little exchange. It's pretty
nice for you. I never knew that. It's funny because he's a terrible actor. And, of course,
the funny line when he runs on Saturday live is, well, we tell him not to give up his day of
job, but he wasn't having a day job right now because he's just been suspended. So he really didn't
have one to go, but to fall back out in the moment. So, Mike, as someone who's been in New York for
as long as you have, you can speak to great detail, painful detail, the drought. And I didn't know
was this bad. The champion chip drought that the greater New York area is mired in. And I'm
going to give you, I'm going to see how well you know this. I'm going to put you on the spot.
You ready? Okay. When was the last NFL Super Bowl? The New York Jets one.
That was 1969 January, January 12, 1969. The last Super Bowl won by the New York Giants.
2011 season. So early 2012.
The New York Islanders 1983. That was the one team I chose properly when I was a kid.
That was a good win. I know the Islanders well. Yeah, that was a win.
The New York Rangers 1994. New York Yankees. 2009, which doesn't sound like that a long ago,
but for Yankee fans might as well have been happened before, you know, before before Wi-Fi.
New York Mets 1986. New York Nicks 1973. Brooklyn Nets.
Well, you know, if you're going to count the ABA and I do, because I love the ABA, then it's zero.
Do we count the devils? You know what? We only cover them briefly, but, you know, we don't,
we want to make the point, you know, having the point more because they're actually,
you know, they're actually ruined a little bit, but yeah, they were 2010, I think. I think
maybe it's early on that. No, 2002. That's a hell of a list. You got them all right. Yeah,
you got them all right. So does that make New York sports overrated?
I would say yes except the fact that I don't think at least around here, nobody expects about
any more. You should see what it's like now. You know, I live in Fayetteville, a college town,
right? I mean, you know, you've worked in DFW forever, so you've been around all these various
college towns in Texas. We've both covered games, probably in Alabama and Oklahoma. He's just
unbelievable college towns. And my friend Chuck Hulper once was described New York as being
a good guy. It's Tuscaloosa with a skyline, and he's right to a degree.
Tuscaloosa with a skyline. I've stolen that a couple of times, but I always, I always regretfully
give him credit for it. But, but the fact of the matter is that New York is out of college town,
and you should see what we're like for St. John's now. Oh, this is okay. Do you see that shirt?
Yeah. Oh, God. I'm sorry. That's a tough beat for you. That is a tough
but I mean, I mean, I couldn't believe it. You know, I took the red eye home from that game.
I was in I was in San Diego covering the game just a just a fantastic game. I just a great game.
Not a more played game by any stretch. Both those teams probably think they should have won the
game by 15, even the team that lost because that first half was one to throw into the end
cinerator. But, but, but, but, but same when New York right now is head over heels for the
for St. John's. And even guys, even people want to for them or Matt Narione, maybe not
I own it because they still have hard feelings about Pratino. But it's amazing. It's become a
college. It's it's become Tuscaloosa with a skyline again. I might actually write that today.
And, um, yeah, it's it's, it's been. It's it's it's been a minute since we've had
anything that's anything to write home about. And, you know, it's funny because there was a moment
there where, you know, the Yankees were running the series every year, including once when they
beat the Mets. At the same time, the Nix went to the finals and at the same time, the Rangers
had just come off the, the Stanley Cup and the Devils were running a couple of K-Sanley
cups and the Giants were in the Super. I mean, at the early part of my time, with the post,
it was like, boy, this is exhausting, but it's, you've got a good team right by every,
every few months. And now it's just, it's just something. Mike, I don't mean to date you,
but I had read you for a long time. And you were one of the people who covered the Yankees when I
was very young starting out that there was this select group of people who covered the Yankees.
I was covering the Texas Rangers that were, that was a very intimidating lot for me. I bet.
And you would have been in that circle of people that I always looked at as like they were here.
And I still see that, you know, it's hard to change that impression from when you were,
they were, you know, that, that sort of die as cast when you're young. And you're in that group
to me because the, the New York media throng can be very intimidating for out of towners,
much in the same way Boston can. But New York, Philly, Boston, they all kind of had that.
And I was, that was, that could be really intimidating. And as I've gotten to know a few,
of you guys, Howard Bryant would be one. Sure. For Ducy would be another one. And you're,
there's, there's a pun. I've always been so pleasantly surprised, just how generally kind,
nice and really humble you all are. And I would certainly put you in that category. I want to,
I just went way too long. But I have more questions that I'm not going to bother you with.
I really appreciate you doing this, especially after catching a red eye back from
standing on a long, long day. No, I appreciate it, Matt. This has been a, this has been a fun
chat. I appreciate spreading the gospel about the brushes, the Bronx a little bit, but also
talking about the other stuff we talked about. Thanks a lot. These are, these podcasts are just so
much fun. When, when, when, when you talk about things other than the one subject, then that's right.
I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to do that. It's been a lot of fun talking to you about it.
Thanks, Mike. Congratulations on the book. I wish you the very best of success.
And continued good health. And I look forward to continuing reading your work. Thanks a lot, Mike.
Thanks, Matt. It was great talking to you. Likewise. See you later.
Start spreading the news. I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of it.
This is a stolen water media production.