Steroids users are Baseball Hall of Famers, too | Engel Angle

I didn't fully appreciate my mother until I had to be Santa Claus.
Mack Engel, Fort Worth Star Telegram, Engel Engel Podcast.
Here on the Sunset Lounge, thank you very much for joining me and when I wish you and
your family a happy Merry Christmas or any other holiday that you get to celebrate.
I want to celebrate this time of the year, I hope you guys are safe, have a great time
and enjoy your friends and family.
Remember to take the day off.
This episode has to do with something that happened with me a couple years ago and it's
a responsibility that I earned and that is to be a baseball hall of fame voter.
I'm going to give you a little bit of background on this and specifically why my mindset about
this has shifted.
Another thing I do vote for, the Heisman Trophy.
I started that a couple years ago as well.
Just to give you some background on it, how you become a voter for these awards is unique to whether it's
awards or hall of fame or anything is unique to that specific organization.
None of it's terribly scientific, I hate to say.
The way I became a Heisman Trophy voter, I've been in sports media for 25 years,
in more than 25 years in North Texas.
I never had one, I'm even bothered to look.
Somebody called me from college station and said somebody has retired or they've moved on to a different job.
Do you want as part of my Heisman vote?
Yes, sure.
That was it.
It wasn't like a questionnaire.
It wasn't like anything else.
It was like, do you want it?
Yes, sure.
I started that a couple years ago in the way that balloting procedure works is they send you an email.
This includes a link and then you vote for the player that you want first place, second place and third place.
You submit those names in his school and then you are asked not to submit, pardon me, not to release who your ballot was until after the Heisman Trophy ceremony is completed,
which was last Saturday night in New York City.
Just for your identification, I voted Indiana University Quarterback Fernando Mendoza 1.
Texas Tech Linebacker Jacob Rodriguez 2 and Vanderbilt Quarterback Diego Pavia 3.
I really, really wanted to vote for Jacob Rodriguez number 1 because Texas Tech has the best defense and he's the best defensive player.
And not enough defensive players are given due credit or even a chance to win the Heisman Trophy.
But I went with Fernando Mendoza because I grew up in Indiana and I can appreciate the meteor strike of a season, seasons that Indiana University football has enjoyed in 24 and 25.
If you had told me, when I was in high school, long time ago, if you had told me when I was in high school, middle school, college, first 15 years at a college or whatever,
that Indiana University football would be number 1 in the nation, undefeated, win the big 10 by defeating Ohio State.
I wouldn't have believed any of it.
That has been the worst college football program in the nation for a long, long time.
I realized there are some other ones in the conversation.
You can throw a Purdue in that. No, Purdue has been better than Indiana.
Kansas has been very bad.
Washington State had some stinkers.
There's a partly rather Oregon State, but all of those schools have had a couple of seasons or two in there where they were pretty good.
Kansas won an Orange Bowl back in 2007. Indiana has done nothing. Nothing since, like, 47 other than maybe a blip here and there.
But they've been terrible.
So, to me, the quarterback, who was legitimately really good, the quarterback of that team, they've gotten one of the highest controversy.
Even if his statistics maybe aren't as pretty as say Diego Povius.
And Diego Povius season with Vanderbilt is amazing.
For that guy to do what he did at that university is astounding.
But to me, what Indiana did was just a little bit better.
And when I voted for Jacob Rodriguez in any other circumstance, any other circumstance, he goes number one.
And it should be said to vote for this is you should take the responsibility seriously.
Because for the person who wins this award more than any other award in college sports, this can be a life changer.
This can be residuals and card shows and any number of things that can have a make a really big difference in their life for the rest of their lives.
So you should take that responsibility pretty seriously because, whomever wins, their lives are going to change for the better forever as a result.
And that which leads me into the next one, which is the baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
Now, when it comes to the baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, like every other Hall of Fame, they, as well as the Heismatrophy, they all started out small.
They were glorified mom and pops without the women.
They were so small and it was a way to celebrate the game, the tradition and tell the story of the sport.
All of these baseball Hall of Fame and Museum started in 1936.
Football was a much longer thereafter.
All of these started out small long, long before the amount of money and global attention was paid to baseball, basketball, football, all of it, hockey.
So all of these things started out with traditions and practices and even protocols that you would say here in 2025, huh?
I must, maybe we should look at that again. Maybe we should change that.
But as we all know, changing anything, especially something that's been around for a long time, takes an act of God.
So baseball Hall of Fame's voting procedures are part of me credentials go like this.
You have to be a card carrying member of the baseball writers association of America.
And you have to cover a major league baseball team for 10 consecutive years. Those are the two qualifications.
Now, I covered the Texas Rangers in 2001 and 2002 and then I stopped and went to a different sport.
So then I lost those two years. I did not regain. I had my clock didn't start again until 2012 or 13. I don't remember.
And then I had to do another 10 years and even looking back on that, if you would have told me, yeah, you're going to be in this job long enough to become a baseball Hall of Fame voter.
I think I would have said, yeah, I don't think that's going to happen.
So I was shocked amongst other emotions I had when I got the email that said I had done it long enough to become an eligible voting member.
And I will say it's kind of neat. It is kind of cool. It's not changing my life, but it's one of those things that's kind of a fun little detail.
The one thing about that as I looked at it, however, and I've brought this up to a few people is that's something that needs to be modified because sports media has changed dramatically in the last 25 years.
I don't know how many more people who start in the business today.
And our baseball writers association of members, how many more of those people are going to have the opportunity to have 10 consecutive years covering a team.
They will not allow people who cover the team for team websites or MLB.com. Those people are not eligible.
And there are a lot of terrific people who I know who did that, who gave up their Hall of Fame vote for perfectly good financial decisions. It was better job security.
But the baseball writers have been very steadfast in their credentials about that. And specifically, you can't have a vote if you're working for a team because in their mind, and I certainly understand it, you're compromised.
And the truth is, this is no criticism of anybody who's in those jobs. They are somewhat. They are. It's not PR. It's not.
But it's not an ability to call it like you see it the way people in my job are allowed. And there's fewer and fewer of us.
Now, they may be independent and they may have a podcast or any number of other things that have gone on to do really, really well.
But I don't think the people who work for the big sites like bar stool or John Boyer. I don't think they would be eligible to vote.
So people like me and I'm 52. I don't know how many people are going to become behind me to vote.
And the other thing too about this is that the Hall of Fame and Statcher has changed dramatically in the last 20 years as sports and entertainment consumption habits have looked nothing like they did starting at about 1990.
The Internet and explosion of content.
I would certainly say the blurred lines of conflicts of interest. Those have gone out the door. Nobody cares about that anymore.
Gambling. All of these things have just changed it. But for the players, for the people who are on this ballot, this is a huge deal.
I'm going to do something and do some name-dropping here. I was at a dinner in Detroit 2005 or six at the Super Bowl.
And Michael Irvin, the former Dallas Cowboys wide receiver and his wife joined a group of us. There was like eight of us.
And we waited for Michael for about an hour and a half. And I'll still never understand why I was there.
I mean, ESPN set it up. I'll never know why I was there. It was a nice dinner. And Michael sits there and proceeds to hold court for about two and a half hours. No commercial break.
And for those of you who don't know, Michael is great. He's a very engaging guy. He's really funny, very nice man.
But at one point in the conversation, one detail really stuck out, which was he talked about how important it was to get in the Hall of Fame.
For a couple of different reasons. One, it's a life's goal. And for two, if you can write H-O-F under your name at a card show, it goes up.
You're asking price goes up. And it makes perfect sense. But it's not anything that I'd ever really given any thought. One, I don't get a card shows or I'm not a collector.
But that's just something that I really never crossed my mind. But it stayed with me. And so when I got this, my first one a couple of years ago, I always remember what Michael Irving said, which was H-O-F on that signature means more. It's worth more.
So for these guys, even though they may have made a lot of money in their career, God only knows what their financial state may be now. But it's worth a lot.
And he wanted to the people who've done it before and take this seriously needs to be taken. Now I'm not getting myself. I'm not carrying cancer. But for these guys who have made this ballot, it's a big deal.
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And a few years ago, when I decided to, when I was given this responsibility, when I earned it, or when we'll call it, I thought one thing that baseball Hall of Fame always got right more than any other was it was the hall of great, the very best at the best.
If you look at the other Hall of Fame's, you can sit there and make a solid case about a lot of those guys like, huh, well, why'd you get in? Really? You're in?
That's kind of weird. And I could, I could name the basketball Hall of Fame anybody gets in. If you picked up a ball, you'll get in probably because they're trying to sell tickets to the Hall of Fame ceremony in Springfield, Massachusetts, the football Hall of Fame. Wait too many guys get in. Now I understand the rosters are twice the size of a major league baseball roster approximately.
So that's more people to consider, but you got six eight guys every year getting in into me. It just, it just dilutes it somewhat baseball. You might get one guy a year or two or three. And that's it. And to me, that always felt appropriate that you've got to be the very, very best of your area, your gender, whatever to get in.
Now what's muddied all of this exponentially are steroids.
I've changed my view on this and I'm a little sad that I have, but my view on steroid users, because when I was covering major league baseball, that's when the sport was right in the middle of it.
And they hadn't, they hadn't been taken to court yet, so to speak, by Congress and called out an embarrassed like Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Raphael, Palmero, all those guys. That hadn't happened yet.
I was right in the middle of it and I was covering a team that it's difficult to signal out one team, but there were a couple guys on that team that we all knew about that.
And, but still at the point, it was still kind of in the closet. It was discussed and really, really steroid use didn't start in the 90s or in the early 2000s.
If you go back to, and the way these guys were changing, go back to the 80s and you could start to see it a little bit, nothing like the 90s or the 2000s, but you could start to see it.
Anyways, one of the big points of controversy about the baseball Hall of Fame and the baseball Hall of Fame are whether or not steroid users should get in.
Barry Bonds, the all-time major league leader in home runs is not in nor will he ever get in. Roger Clemens, one of the greatest pitchers ever to play is not in.
There are some other ones too, but those are the most Mark McGuire, all-time baseball, season single leader in home runs, not in.
Sammy Sosa, another guy who hit more than 500 home runs, not in will never get in.
Rafael Palmero hit any number of statistical milestones that said, go to Cooperstown, not in will never get in.
And I thought, yes, when I initially took on the vote, I thought, yeah, that makes sense.
And when I did take on the vote, I don't think Bonds was on it. Bonds had already passed the 10-year window that you can be on it.
There are all kinds of percentages and things like that. If you receive so many votes, then you can stay on the ballot for another year, etc.
But Bonds was not on it, and Clemens wasn't on it. And my attitude about those guys was, had they been on it, I would have voted a man.
Because I thought they were Hall of Famers without steroids. Because there was a clear and obvious time when you could tell certain guys were using and when they weren't.
And my attitude about this changed dramatically when I started to see guys who got in that the overwhelming majority of us who followed the game thought, yeah, you're doing something.
Jeff Bagwell got in, and I hate to say that because every time I ever dealt with Jeff Bagwell when he was playing with Houston Astros, he could not have been any nicer.
But I'm not going to kid myself and to think that that guy probably wasn't doing something to help out.
David Ortiz, he's another one whose name has come up, came up as a person who did test positive.
And then it became a false positive, and the testing procedures were wrong, and blah, blah, blah. And I didn't know, and it's all bullshit.
Dude, you know what you were doing. All of those guys, all of them know what they are putting in their body.
All of them, now more than ever, because it's worth so much.
So this idea, yeah, I have any idea, this guy gave me this, and I just took it, you're full of it. You knew what you were doing, and you were not eating cracker jacks.
Alex Rodriguez, I covered A-Rod's first two years in Texas, and I will never forget, I'm in the clubhouse in Port Charlotte, Florida, and he comes out of the weight room, lifting.
And that was the off season, so that would have been the start of the 2002 season. He walks out of the weight room without a sure on, and he lifted.
And I looked at him and I'm like, wow, you changed a lot, and I'm just thinking, I certainly didn't say it, but I'm saying, wow, you changed a lot.
Ivan Rodriguez, another one. There's a ton of them, and one thing that I could say about all these different guys that I just mentioned.
Jeff Bagwell, Hall of Fame, Pedro Rodriguez, Hall of Fame, Mike Piazza, another one, Hall of Fame, David Ortiz, Hall of Fame.
They all got in. As well as the managers who benefited from these players who used.
So I thought, well, wait a minute, that's a hell of a thing. If we're going to do selectively discriminate against this guy or that guy, but not this one or this one, either they all get in or they don't, you don't get to pick and choose.
So that's why on my particular ballot, we'll see that, I included a couple names that I know will not get in, but I also know they were Hall of Fame players.
Alex Rodriguez is on my ballot. It's part of me rather as a person I voted for, as well as Boston Red Sox Altfield, there are many Ramirez who got popped twice. Also I voted for Carlos Beltran, Andrew Jones, and Andy Pettit.
So this is a lot for me. Normally I do two or three. This was a lot, but I voted for two guys who did test positive for steroids.
Many Ramirez is not going to get in. Alex Rodriguez will not get in. They won't.
Were they Hall of Fame players without it? Yes, they were. My thing about this is that one thing that the baseball Hall of Fame in museum should do.
Now this, the voting procedure is different than the Hall of Fame. I want to be clear about that.
The baseball writers association of America, they're the one who handle all this in conjunction with the Hall of Fame.
So they're not, they're under the same umbrella, but they kind of operate differently. To me, and it's the reason why it's, it's my attitude about Pete Rose.
Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame because you cannot tell the story of Major League Baseball without Pete Rose in it.
I can't tell the story of Major League Baseball without Barry Bonds in it. I don't be real clear. Barry Bonds is a horse's ass.
And I have no sympathy for Barry Bonds. None. The way he treated people repeatedly over the course of his career, I have no sympathy for him.
Now whether or not this is karma or whatever, I have no idea. And I did hear Barry Bonds recently say, if the Hall of Fame did, did vote me in, I wouldn't answer. He's full of shit.
All of those guys, all of them would crawl over broken glass in a bed of rusty nails to get in that Hall of Fame, all of them.
And he would be just as the same as the rest who sit there and say, Kurt Schilling and others, oh no, I didn't matter.
Anyway, you're lying. It totally matters. And they really want in. But they're probably not.
For people who ask about Bonds, Bonds' case was on a special veterans committee this last go around.
The special veterans committee of voters is comprised of a handful of guys, former players included, who decide whether or not a handful of guys who didn't get in the first go around or during their 10 year period on the ballot, if they should get in.
Barry Bonds didn't make it this time. The same for Don Mattingley, Dale Murphy. Jeff Kent got in.
I don't think I would have put Jeff Kent in. And not for any of the reason, I don't think he was a Hall of Fame player.
Great player, all star, Hall of Famer? No, I don't think so. Barry Bonds? Hell yeah. I didn't like him. He clearly cheated his ass off to break that record.
He did. And it should have an ass risk next to it. It won't. But it does. Anybody who's watched the gamer consume the game for any period of time knows that era of player overwhelmingly.
And I'm sorry. I know a lot of guys complain about this and say, well, I didn't take anything. I'm sorry. Your brothers, your brothers in the union did.
And those negotiations of those contracts, you benefited from that at least tangentially. So sorry, maybe you didn't.
But they got your teammate. Well, he did. So tough deal with it.
I just don't think in this particular case or pardon me with a lot of these guys who've been on the ballot.
A rod, a rod, a rod changed the game. Not just because of his, his ability as a player, but the contract that he signed with the Texas Rangers and the winner of 2000 at the time 10 years and 252 million dollars was an inconceivable number 60 minutes to the story on it because we had never seen anything like that.
Those contracts now are pretty routine for great players. Well, he did it. And if we're going to celebrate Kurt flood.
And what he did for players when he fought to become a free agent back in the 70s, a rod deserves to be in that kind of conversation. He's a Hall of Fame player.
Was a premodana insecure horse's ass. Yes, he was. I don't know how he is now, but he was. I mean, he was.
But he was a great player. Did he take steroids? Yeah, he did. There are a lot of other guys. Yes, they did. Will he get in? No, he won't.
But I just don't think there, I think there are too many instances of, I shouldn't say too many. There are a handful of players whose achievements, whose contribution to the evolution of the sport needs to be recognized.
In some way, if for any other reason than as a historical lesson, Barry bonds is a great player. And I would have put him on. I would have voted him in, but I can't.
Roger Clemens, the same way. I would have voted in. I can't. But I don't think baseball Hall of Fame and the people who come up with the way this has been evaluated because there's a lot of voters out there who say, I'm not considering anybody who got popped at all.
So that eliminates a lot of people. And there are a lot of voters out there who maintain that position. And I respect it. And I get it. I just don't think anymore. You can really separate one from the other because too many people benefited from it.
Too many people who probably did it are in and the single guys out. It's kind of a bad luck. The whole era as profitable as it was has its own asterisk.
So here I'll buy December 31st. I will drop this in the mail to the baseball writers Association of America in New York, New York. And we'll see what happens then.
So that's that. I best you and your family over the holidays. Be safe. See you next time.
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