Navigating the “N-Word” writing Tupac Shakur’s biography | Engel Angle

Oh, God, I look like my dad.
Mac, Engle, Fort Worth Star Telegram, Engle, Angle Podcast, here in the Sunset Lounge.
It goes without saying, I am, well again, I'm always excited to introduce my guest for
this episode because this is not the example of, don't meet your heroes.
I am happy to say that when I met this guest, he exceeded all of my expectations.
My guest for this episode is Best Selling Author, Jeff Pearlman, who's not just a sportswriter
mind you.
And when I was introduced to Jeff's name, probably like a lot of us, it was through a rather
infamous interview and story that he wrote about then Atlanta Braves reliever John Rocker.
This was back in the 90s and John said a whole bunch of things that made you go really
huh and it eventually led to his suspension, a brief suspension from Major League Baseball.
Jeff Pearlman was the writer and all he did was write the truth and that's one of the
reasons why I admire Jeff so much is that he doesn't really care what you think as
long as it's true and Jeff always does go for the truth.
I met Jeff and just coincidentally, I actually covered John Rocker when he was with the
Texas Rangers in 2002 and needless to say John's relationship towards the media by then was
a little frosty.
He was nice to me.
He was fine, but I wouldn't necessarily call him chatty.
He was fine though, clearly at the end of his career.
A couple years later, I did meet Jeff Pearlman in that same locker room, the Texas Rangers
locker room.
He was in DFW working on one of his eventually Best Selling Books and that particular book
was Three Ring Circus, which was about the Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Dynasty, LA
Lakers.
I went up and I introduced myself and I'm happy to say that Jeff could not have been
any nicer, very kind, very professional, very engaging.
You never know and he was all those things and I was happy to get to know him a little
bit.
I've had him on this podcast before years ago when he had another book out or actually
that's when he had the HBO series about a different book that he wrote about the Lakers
coincidentally.
That was about the Showtime Lakers, but Jeff is a lot more than just a sports writer.
He's really creative.
He's one of the few guys really in writing who has created a name for himself.
There's not many of those guys out there anymore.
It's become obviously an increasingly niche field.
I would say I would put Jeff in the same category as John Crockauer, maybe Hampton Sides.
There's some other ones who are there, but there's not many of them and certainly Jeff
is and one of the reasons why Jeff has a name and is so established is his veerlessness
to interview everybody.
If he picks a topic, he will find anybody and everybody who has any relationship to that
topic.
No matter how tangential or seemingly inconsequential, if they've had any time or exposure to that
subject, Jeff wants to talk to him and he does and quite frankly, it's really inspiring
to me.
He also has a YouTube channel that I highly recommend.
That's called the Pressbox Chronicles and Jeff is loaded with great stories about his
sports or any career and he comes across some really good ones.
So it would go without saying if I didn't mention some of the other books, best selling
books that he's written.
Showtime, that's about the Magic Johnson Dynasty Lakers in the 80s.
That was eventually converted into a really good HBO series.
It was on for two years, two seasons rather.
I thought it deserved to go longer than that, but you never know.
That was a really good series.
The book was terrific.
Three Ring Circus, as I mentioned before, boys will be boys.
That was his best selling book about the 1990s era Dallas Cowboys.
Sweetness, a book about former Chicago Bears running back, Walter Payton, it's very good.
Football for a book, a bust selling book about the Donald Trump era that was the USFL.
His timing on this, Jeff's timing on football for a book couldn't have been any better because
it came out right around the same time that Trump's ascension politically was happening.
The other one, along with other titles, is Gunslinger.
That's about former Green Bay Packers quarterback Brett Farrer.
Now, he has a new book out, and it is not about sports.
It is only God can judge me, and this is a book about the late hip-hop artist Tupac Shakur.
Jeff had told me once that this was a book that he wanted to do, and I wasn't really
sure if he was going to do it, but Jeff is big enough that he can have a conversation
with the publisher or an agent and say, I think I want to do this, and they'll say,
OK, go for it.
He went for it.
It's out on shelves now.
You probably see Jeff relentlessly and tirelessly promoting this new book, and as well as anything
else he does, because that's what you got to do.
Anyways, without further ado, my guest, Mr. Jeff Perlman, I don't think we want to
do the direct to conversions, direct to sales from this podcast appearance to your book
sales.
I really ask, I really request that we not look that up, is that all right?
That's fine.
I just want to say, Matthew, every author has a moment when they've hit the low, when
they've hit the bottom of their PR schedule, and they're just like scratching and clawing
for anything, right?
And you think you hit that low, and you know, you're out on the corner of whatever giving
hands out for $5 if they buy your book.
And then you think you've hit the low when you're like showing leg on a corner, hoping
they just find you attractive, and then buy your book, where I am, man, where I am right
here.
This might be it.
What is your, I have one of the, everybody has one of these, and I don't know if I've
asked you this, or I've heard you share the story.
What is your most humiliating book sales experience, appearance, or anything like that?
That's the one where it just humiliated, humiliation took its two by four right to your
face.
I have many, but I would say it actually took place in your state there.
I was in, I did a book signing in Fort Hood at Fort Hood for my Dallas Cowboys book, and
I was in Dallas promoting the book, Boys Are We Boys, and my publisher, or publicist,
said, we've arranged a great event for you.
Fort Hood touches, they're going to have you out, blah, blah, blah, great event, a lot
of people.
I was like, that sounds great.
I'll drive out to Fort Hood, greeted by a guy, and this is even when I was less known
than I am now, and I'm not even that known now, I'm just a writer, I'm greeted by a guy
who says to me, we don't get many celebrities around here, and I was thinking, oh no, this
is going to be fun.
And I was picturing a room where they put you in a room with a bunch of soldiers and
they hand out books.
It's kind of a nice chat.
No, they have like a Walmart on the base, a Walmart-type building.
They put me in front with a stack of books as high as a skyscraper, and someone gets
on a PA system and goes, attention customers, Roman is selling his book.
Yeah, I was there for four hours and I sold three books, halfway through, halfway through,
I went under the table, not joking, like this, and I called my wife and I go, I need to
get the fuck out of here.
That couldn't escape, what's, you got a good one?
Yeah, I'm always really proud of this one, because I had already written a book before,
and the book, the books that you're writing, although, you know, some of them I've done,
I've only done four, and mine are probably a little bit more original, probably.
So I had done one, and I had a publisher, he said, hey, I have an event at SMU.
It's on, it was in November, and I want to say it was after Black Friday, it was already
after, right?
It was the weekend before Black Friday, and SMU had a home football game, and SMU was
okay, it was doing okay, but I had lived here long enough to know what an SMU home football
game brought in back then, and they were going to do it at the bookstore, which is normal.
Barnes and Noble, you know it, okay, they're going to do it at the Barnes and Noble,
because it's basically on campus, and I'm going to be there for two hours, and the marketing
person's very excited about it, and I had already done a few of these to know what to expect.
So I had said to the publisher, I said, can I please not do this?
I said, nobody's going to be there, because I knew SMU, and again, what SMU is now,
isn't what it is, what it was then, this was back in 15 or whatever, I don't know what
it was, and anyways, no, it was back in a way, anyways, so I basically, Jeff, I begged
the guy, and he said, hey, look, you signed the contract, and I said, you know what, you're
right, I'll go, I'll make the best of it.
So I know going in five people, maybe.
So I get to the Barnes and Noble ahead of time, it's going to go from 11 to one, the marketing
person meets me, man, she was so excited, she's so jazzed up, and I turn the corner there
in the Barnes and Noble, and she has lined up rows of chairs, and then there's a desk
with a stack of my books.
This was one about Texas Stadium, and I'm still kind of, I still have a love hate relationship
with all of that, and I look at it and I go, oh no, there was an older woman waiting for
me when I was there, so I'm there at 10.50, I signed it for her, thank you so much, I really
appreciate it.
I sit down, nobody shows up for two hours, and the poor, I felt bad, I felt so bad for
the marketing person because she felt bad for me, and I don't know if you've had, I'm
sure you've had those moments where customers walk by and they give you that awkward look
the worst, and so I have a, luckily I had a sense of humor about it then, and I thought,
well this will be a good story, and it hasn't been a great story, and so I was like, well,
and she was so apologetic, so on my way out, another woman comes out and says, oh you haven't
left yet, and I'm like, there you are, so she bought one, and I sold two, yeah, no, you
know John Worth, I'm it all, have you met John?
I know of him, I think we've traded emails, I have a tremendous amount of respect for
his work, I mean, he's got this weird niche in terms of tennis in 60 minutes, it's
like this weird combination, but no, I've never had a chance to actually visit with him.
He's a very good friend, I'm in my wife that is writing actually, we're very old, and
he did a book about Indiana basketball lines, and they line up with a couple of book events
at Indiana, at different stores, and he goes to the store, and he shows up, and the store
is out of business, it's out of business, and he calls and publishes, and he goes, I'm
here at the store, but the store doesn't exist, and the publisher says, that's so weird,
they've always been really good to us in the past.
Sam Farmer has a good one, Sam Farmer of the LA Times, I'm sure you know Sam, Sam did
one, and I think he was at a Barnes and Noble, and the woman, he's, you know, it's one of
these horror, you know, it's one of these author horror story experiences, just like what
we're sharing, and I think the person was looking for the book that was behind him, and
he was right, so he had to get out of way and reach it and give it to her, she had no
interest in the book that he had written, but I, this is like almost like a rap battle.
I did, you and I go back here, one of my first ever events was at the Mayo Pack Public
Library, which is my hometown library in Mayo Pack, New York, okay?
Back guys one met, it's kind of a met's town, definitely a baseball town, I go back, they
never advertised it, so the only way you would know I was appearing is if you were a psychic
or a family member, I had three people, my mom, my dad, my wife, and then a kid I went
to high school, a sister just happened to be in the library, so she came up, and that
was it, and that was my hometown library, that was a good, well, I've had a couple where,
you know, you know, there's a rush of like five or six at the beginning, and the one that
I remember the most, and I don't know if you've, because you've done so many of these, is
that you get the person who shows up, who's really lonely, and they're just looking for
somebody to talk to, and they're so happy that you're there, and you don't want to be
rude, but at the same time, you're like, well, this person please leave, but then if they
leave, you've got nobody, I don't have nobody than one, I hate to say it, I totally agree
with you, I'll never forget this guy, because if I didn't leave or if the store hadn't closed,
he would probably still be there talking to me right now, and that was in 2007.
I've had recently, I've done, I don't do signings like I used to, because I'm not a celebrity,
the only way it works now is if you're a celebrity, if you're a celebrity chef, and the reality
of the harsh reality of modern times, I looked at the list last week, the New York Times
list, it's basically all, not all, but mostly the political celebrities, TV celebrities, people
who didn't even write their own books, or just it's by Eric Trump, but it's not, and
so I'm just like, it doesn't make sense, I'm not even mad at the publishing companies,
it doesn't make sense to fly me to Cleveland, and then Toledo, and then Detroit, paying
for airfare, paying for lodging, to sell at best 50 books to the start, best, it just
doesn't make sense, so you do the local, tell your friends and family to come out, I did
two of them here, it was great, but like I don't need to go to Cleveland and send an empty
book store, I just don't, like I'm way past that ego-wise, I don't need to tell people
about a book tour, my big nightmare of this book is Amazon ran out of the book four days
ago, so it's my first week, I'm actually devastated, my book, this is what's going to be my
best selling book, and Amazon ran out, and it took it four days to them to replenish
the stock, so like, I feel like, and I'm not, this isn't like some, like, I feel like
I was on course to make the New York Times list, and then people just couldn't get the book
anymore, and that actually, well, I was, you know, when I was doing an intro for you, you're
in this really rarefied community of people who are now known as authors, you, well, no, I mean,
you are, I mean, you can be modest about it, but I would put you in the same category as
Hampton Sides, John Crackauer, Eric Larson, there's not many of you guys, when Jeff Pearlman
writes a book, there's, there's interest based on your reputation just as a writer, and
it used to be, obviously, you know, we can go down this web novel, it used to be, it was
this and this, and there's just not many of you guys left, and I applaud the hell out of
it, I think it's amazing, but there is that bittersweet feeling to it, and I, you know, you
wear your emotions on your sleeve on social media, how do you feel about that? To me, it's
devolution of the industry. Yeah, it's kind of funny, in a way, and this is not like a, it
started as an insult, as a compliment, and turned really sad, because it's like, you're
known as one of the book writers, and it's like, oh, that's cool, you know, like it's
cool, whatever, Michael Lewis and Stephen King, and all that stuff, right? I'm obviously
not in their sales class, but I'm saying these people were known as authors, right? But
then you realize they've just started that many left. So like, it's like, you know, it's
like having the best magazine out in 2025, like it's just, it's not the same. And the
weird thing is, honest of God, I feel like what I'm best known for now, and this you
could just stab me in the head with a knife, if you want, is TikTok. Like, I've gained
a shitload of TikTok followers, and I get recognized, I literally two days ago, I was
on Belboa Island here in California, and the guy goes to me, you look like Jeff Pearlman,
and I said, that's funny, because I am Jeff Pearlman.
John, while you are on TikTok, I get recognized for TikTok more than anything I've ever
written, and that's like here we are, you know, did you have any, I have not, I have
not added TikTok, I have not done it. And obviously I'm regional, I'm small, like you
talked about, that's known author, like columnist who cares. And did you have any reluctance
to embracing TikTok at all? I did.
Oh, my TikTok story is crazy, actually. I am year and a half ago, hasn't been that long.
I was, I wrote on Twitter, which I've since left. I gave some advice to like young journalists
who've been laid off, right? Yeah. Yeah, the defector, the website, the de facto, which
is all the old deadspin douchebags are now in the de facto, right? They're not all
used to it, but they were always, I mean, some guy just blasted me in a columny route about
how, why would you listen to this guy for social media advice? And, you know, blah, blah,
blah. I think it's Tom Lee, I like why. And I've never met him. And I was kind of like
to how with this, I'm going to join TikTok and my son is like, don't do it. I'm like,
now I'm going to do it. He's like, don't do it. And he's like, don't use filters and
don't talk politics. I don't use filters. I do sometimes talk politics. And thanks
to that guy calling me out, I've had kind of a reinvention. TikTok led to the YouTube
series press box chronicles. It's been great to me. I get paid now on TikTok. I get paid
now to do the YouTube show. It's a nice, not getting rich off it, but it's a nice, got
a couple thousand bucks showing up every month that I didn't have before is cool. And
also like, I think it's opening me up to new readers a little bit. So, and it is a little
like of reinforcement. I always saw TikTok was like, tell a swift lip syncing like people
girls, my daughter lip syncing the K-pop songs. And really people like the story telling
the nature of it. So, it's been really good for me. So, thank you, Tom Lee for being
an asshole. I worked out. Oh, so I just want to say one thing that you would appreciate
me. What's that? That guy called me out. I emailed him to be like, hey, what the heck
or whatever. He never responded. And I emailed him to thank him because it inspired me
and asked if he'd want to come on my podcast and just talk about it all, never responded.
So like, I feel like you and I were raised in this era of accountability. If nothing
else, journalist accountability, the call sucks. Oh, it's fun. But you do it. This guy
just dot me over and over again after reading. That's pathetic. That that's weak. That's
really weak, especially, especially I think because I remember you had a great back and
forth on social media with Kurt Weyer. That's when you were in Twitter. I only forgot
about that. So, it was great. But it was, but it was really respectful. Yeah, he was
nice. He was not a jerk at all. Not at all. Not at all. And I have, and I, you know,
I've done that a couple times where you have a respectful back and forth. And all that
is is just a disagreement, especially this is just about sports. And for that guy, a journalist
just sit there and call you out. And then you say, Hey, let's talk about this. That's
a really interesting conversation. And to me, he sounds like he's just cowardly running
from it as opposed to stepping into it and say, Yeah, this is why I said what I said.
And you've got a really nice exchange where you could learn a little bit about the other
and the other persons take on it. And instead, he's just like, no, I don't want to be called
out. It's also weird because like, I've had my cowardly moments in life. I'm not going
to lie. Like I've had moments where I kind of, uh, I want to avoid this. But this was
even scary. It's like a fellow journalist. What are you even nervous about? Why? Why wouldn't
you appear in the podcast? And even if you were making fun of me, it's cool. Like just
talk about, I don't know. It's as weird to me. I'm with you on that. In fact, but I do
think you have to pass. I, you know, I don't know how old that guy is. And I don't know.
This is my own aging process. You do pass that threshold where you're so comfortable in
your own skin and your own mistakes and your own shit for lack of a better word that
you're cool talking about it, whatever it is. And that, that's a really empowering thing.
And I don't know where you were when you crossed that threshold. I was, I was later in
life to do it. But you probably, you probably crossed over into that earlier than most.
Oh, same as you actually. I think with a, somewhere along the line, you realize that
like people like when you admit you were wrong. Like people actually respond to it very
positively. And if you apologize, if you say that, like Kurt Warner, I think I said something
about him that was probably kind of rude about it. All of it is all a fame. He shouldn't
be at all. And he's like, Hey, I'm like, also sometimes you don't think you know what,
Kurt Warner. I got to go to the bathroom too. Like he's just a guy who played football
and now he's on TV and he's a guy who goes home. And I make some snarky comment on social
media about him because I don't think he's human. You know, I just don't think of it that
way. And I think as you get older, you realize that people were all just human. Like people
make comments about me and you. And they probably think, Oh, this guy doesn't reader.
These guys don't read it. I'm like, I'm literally wearing my pajamas pants right now.
You know, like I'm just literally. Wow. Nice legs. You do have the greatest hat and t-shirt
collection of anybody I've ever seen. How many sports hats do you have? I probably have 50.
Now by doing for the show, the YouTube. So they've kind of like, now I feel challenged
and never I once wore the same hat twice. I was mad myself. So I try not to. So I try
it. What's the one you like the most? I love the throwback Tampa Bay Buccaneers just because
I'm being a kid. The only team I even care about remotely. And I exaggerate how much
I care about is the New York Jets. And I've always thought their uniforms and logo were
super ugly. So you know, I don't know where. I thought there's this interesting. It's
just a Buffalo Bills hat because it's just kind of weird. You know, it's funny. You mentioned
something because you're wearing your Jets fandom on your sleeve. And I decided to do this.
I just coincidentally lined up around the same time, which is I was born in Cincinnati. I
don't know if you could see this. That's a Cincinnati Bengals Super Bowl champion penance.
Yeah. Right. That's champion. Right. So I've always wanted to get one of those things.
It's a champion from the losing team. And I found it on good. Oh, surprise position.
But I got to tell you, I wasn't feeling your Jets pain at all when my Bengals went out
there on Sunday and lost the most God awful team in Cincinnati against your Jets. So
when an awful off, who's worse, a Bengals fan or a Jets fan? Oh, shut up, man. That's
not even, are you joking? All right. Time out. Time out. You've had Joe Burrow, yet Ken
Anderson, and yet Boomer when he was in his prime, okay? Yep. The Jets had Nemith, who
was probably overrated, but the impact not overrated. In my life, the best Jack quarterback
has probably been Ken O'Brien. The best. He was better than Richard Todd or. Oh, definitely.
It might have been worse than Vinnie Tessa Verde in his best with the Jets, but it was
like Sanchez and Darnold and Ray Lucas and Brown and Nebo and Nagel and Glen Foley. And
you've also gotten a two super voice. I know you lost. No, you've been a three super voice
in your lifetime. Three lost all of them. All the more kick in the nuts. Better to have
loved and lost. I think their helmets are really cool. And that's a Bob. You have a Delaware
Bluehead starting a quarterback for you right now. That's true. That's true. The pride
of Delaware University, Mr. Joe. You know where they're there, Mac. No, sorry. That's big.
I know. All right. Let's get into this. I know you have a life. The last time I had a
chance to visit with you about this, you were thinking about doing a book on Tupac Shakur.
And I remember thinking he's going to do a book on Tupac Shakur. And then my next thought
is that's how much fucking power Jeff Perlman has with the publishing house. They're like,
yeah, we're going to pick this white sports writer to do a book on a deceased, incredibly
popular hip hop artist. Great idea. Jeff, go ahead and do it. So you did it. Was it a hard
sale at all with your agent or a publisher? I mean, my agent did say to me, understandably,
he goes, you know, you are a white sports writer. It's kind of a weird which I think is
a fair point. I think that's what an agent should do is make that kind of point. Yeah, I
had to push my publisher a little bit, but it wasn't that bad. I basically signed a
three book deal. This is the first time I've ever had that. And the, you know, the one
of the other books is a sports book. And then middle one is a vanity project memoir about
my early journalism career that four people read. But the two pop book, maybe five at
Mac, buys a copy. And maybe I'm going to buy a copy for myself. Amazon's going to run
out. So yeah, I'm not in that book. I am. I just really like two box iconic, which helps
obviously. There's a mystique to him that helps. Obviously, it's not like saying I'm going
to write the Nelly biography or like the young MC biography like two box has it as a mystique
about him. And he's been written about, but I just kind of, I always thought, I thought
there was something there that wasn't being tapped into, you know, and there was a book.
There's a writer named Kevin Powell, who is a hip hop writer for a long time. He wrote
for different hip hop magazines and music magazines back in the day. And for years on his
website, he had working on a two-pack book, right? For years. And I kept waiting for it
and waiting for it. And I kind of assumed he wasn't going to do it at some point. And
well, if this guy's not going to do it and no one's going to do it, and I'm just going
to do it. So I just, I told my age and I want to do it. And he sold, he got me a two-pack
deal. I made a pretty impassioned pitch, although I never had to write a proposal. It's the first
book I did not have to write it really, which I have to say Mac is a delight. Oh, I can only
imagine how much that time that saved. So a couple months ago, Mark Kregel, bestselling author,
lives in Los Angeles now, former New York guy, great guy, New Yorker wrote a book about Mike Tyson.
And I have to tell you, you know, my interest level in Tyson was always kind of minimal,
but I opened it up and I read the whole thing like great. It's great. And he interviewed everybody
and their brother and he, you know, his relate, he had a relationship with Tyson, but he mentioned
something in there that crossed paths with this book, which is he talked about prominent young people
who just exploded onto the scene and almost became too famous. And they all died young.
Elvis Presley died young in his early 40s. Marilyn Monroe died very young. Obviously,
two-pack died very young. And Mike Tyson is the only one who's still alive, which is crazy to think
that he's still alive, given all the things that he's done. But in death, Elvis, Marilyn Monroe and
two-pack becomes something, as all this he's due, that maybe they weren't, is two-pack now today
in 2026 more of a myth than he was when he died as a man. Certainly. I mean, there's no doubt about it.
Like, I think in a way, James Dean is the best example. Because if you think, James Dean had a
pretty slim body of work, right? But he happened to be a really good-looking cool actor and,
you know, he died young, so it's the mystique of James Dean. James Dean lives to 80, right?
Like, there's no mystique anymore. There's no mystique. He was this guy. Oh, remember,
and then later in his career, he did two episodes of Law and Order, and then he'd, you know what I mean?
Like, yes. That's how it goes. Yeah. Like, 100% that's how it goes. And even like in hip hop,
like, if Chuck D if public enemy had died at 25, people would be like the mythology of Chuck D
and he was this guy, fight the power. And what would he have done in there, be these books?
But now, Chuck D is 60-something years old, and he still wraps, and you see him commentating.
And he's just Chuck D, 60-year-old guy, with a great legacy, but not a mystique, not an era. Wow,
what could have been? So I just think when Chupac died young,
along with that, always comes mystique, and what could have been, and what would have been,
and also to some degree in exaggeration, like people forget, then I'm one thing people forget
when people die young, like actually young, not 40, but 25 is your only 25, and you don't know
anything about anything. Like, you're 25 years old. I think about myself at 25. I thought I was like,
the man, I ain't no shit about shit. I'm sure you were the same way. You don't know shit about
shit. You think you do. You have a lot of plans. You think you're smarter than everyone else. You think
you're going to be better than everyone else. You think you're going to do this and that. I'm going to
have this car by 30, and I'm going to be running this, and I'm going to be blah, blah, blah. You don't
know. And I think that's the same with Chupac. Like, he had a lot of plans. He was a genius. He was a
brilliant writer. He was really smart. He had no impulse control whatsoever. He put himself in some
really great situations and some really bad situations. But at the end of the day, he was a human being
in a 25-year-old kid. You know, one thing that I've noticed about when I go to concerts,
and this is something that I've only noticed, I started to take my daughter to shows, and I took her
to young people's shows like Olivia Rodrigo and Taylor Swift, and I've taken her old people's shows.
I've taken her to ACDC and the Dubie Brothers, and the one thing I noticed, Jeff, is how often,
and I asked her about this is, I can't understand the lyrics at a lot of times. Now, sometimes that has
to do with the setup, the sound, whatever. I also know this. A lot of times, I'll listen to hip-hop,
and I'll like, I can't understand because they speak so fast. When you were exposed, when you
started to introduce, listen to hip-hop music and rap music, could you immediately pick up
the lyrics and what they were saying? Because a lot of times you mentioned Tupac as a phenomenal writer,
could you make sense of what he was writing? Well, it's it is. First of all, you sound like a
grandpa saying that. Oh, I totally do. I totally don't understand what this Olivia Rodrigo is saying.
No, no, no, no. I want to be fair. Even when I went to Bruce Springsteen concert 25 years ago,
I'm like, what if I didn't know the song, I'm like, I don't know if I was going to know what song that was.
So, all right. As an example, my first hip-hop song that really blew up for me was a song by
public enemy called Black Steel in the Hour of the Chaos. And it's about basically a prison riot
and a prison escape. And Chuck D was a rapper who really elongated his word. So he was like, I got a
letter from the government the other day. I opened and read it. It said they were suckers. Right?
That's how it starts. I okay. And Tupac in a lot of ways is the same way. He kind of as he
like the song, Brenda's got a baby, which is his first big song. It's Brenda's got a baby,
but Brenda's barely got a brain. A damn shame. The girl can hardly spell her name. So it kind of
depends on who you're listening to. Like back in the day, I remember loving like parents just
don't understand by DJ Jazzy Jeff from Fresh Prince. You know, parents are the same no matter time
their place. So it kind of depends. Like rap has gotten a lot more mumbly since Tupac died. And
there's a certain genre of hip-hop that I think Tupac I'm guessing would come back and probably
wouldn't even understand what's going on. So there's just different artists and different
approaches. I do think hip-hop in concert is much easier to understand than a lot of singers. Like
try telling me what what Kirk Cobain was saying in smells like teen spirit. No clue. Or even
Pearl Jam, seeing like you didn't flow like I'm 100% right. So I do feel like a least hip-hop being
more spoken word as much spoken word as it is music is a little easier to understand, but really
depends on the artist and also nothing's wrong with going back and just reading the lyrics,
which now you can do easily, you know. But no, I yeah, mostly I understood the lyrics, but I was
listening pretty intently, you know. So one thing that you've done as a sports journalist is
that you've interviewed most most people that you've interviewed I'd say most, but probably at
least 50% are either current or former black athletes, right. And for anybody who goes into
professional sports journalism as white people, like you better get used to, you're going to
be interviewing a lot of black athletes. And sometimes there are cultural differences that you have
to kind of navigate and figure out. That's just I've talked about this with young, young sports
journalist aspiring church, sports journalist all the times, Jeff. But now you've gone into a place
where I can't imagine there are many white guys in that profession in that world. Was it ever
awkward? Were any of those ever awkward at all when you started this project? It's funny,
it's been more awkward promoting it because a lot of, you know, you see social media. And the term,
I've never, I mean, you and I again, most of the people we probably ridden about have either been
black or Latino. If you think about it or in some case Japanese, I have covered a lot of these.
So the term I've been getting is culture, which is basically someone who comes in and tries
stealing or capitalizing on another person's culture. And I hate it. It stings. And also like,
in a way, there's some truth to it, like I am a white writer coming in and writing about
not just a rap artist, but a cultural icon and not just a culture icon, but meant a ton for many
young black men and women coming up, especially with his ties. She was mother, who was a black
panther and really taught this sort of these lessons of self empowerment. So I actually do understand
where it's coming from. I did not get it working on the book. And I think I had two things going
from me. One is winning time was out when I was working on a lot of the book. And winning time
just gave me a lot of credit. Like it gave me some cultural credit. And when I brought it up early,
which I started to do all the time. I'd be like, I don't know if you watch HBO, but there's a show,
winning time. Oh, I love winning time. Well, that was my book. What? You wrote that book? Always,
you always got to use stuff like that. And then number two, but it just think, I think being a little
older, you sort of just learn how to approach people. And I think to me, as I said over and over
again during this interview, during these interviews, I'd be like, look, man, I am a white sports
writer. There's no denying or hiding this. Not even trying to. I was like, but you'll never find
anyone more interested. I said that all the time. You'll never find anyone more interested in
what you have to say than me. Never. You'll never. I want to know it. Like I went to Marin City or
Tupac grew up for a spell and met with some of the old crack dealers from Marin City. And I would
see them with them. And I'd be like, look, man, I would literally say literally, my dad's name was
Stanley. He was an accountant. We were a Jewish family in rural New York. I never had to worry about
my mom becoming a crack addict. I always knew my parents had money for me to go to college. I have a
180. My life is 180 from yours, but you'll never meet anyone more interested. And that took me a
long way. And I do think my dad used my dad died during the course of reading this book, which
cut my heart out. And my dad used to always say to me, like, what's the the one thing people
like talking about the most and the answer is themselves. And if you're willing to listen to people,
they're pretty happy to talk to you, especially if they know you had a TV show. Okay, it's break time
here on the Sunset Lounge, which means I have to do a little promoting myself. All of the shows
here on the Sunset Lounge are free. We are available now on every major and minor, no disrespect to
that platform where you can find podcasts. YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, patreon.com slash Sunset Lounge,
DFW, on and on and on. If you can think of a podcast platform, the Sunset Lounge is on it,
which includes shows such as the Clubhouse featuring Rob Alexander. There takes on pop culture
sports movies and wrestling. Beer 30 sports clock featuring Ziggy. Ziggy catches you up on all
things beer, gambling and football, not necessarily in that order. Al Moximo, our Spanish speaking
language show. And I'm still a little annoyed that I have yet to be asked to be a guest on that,
even though it ought to be Spanish. They discuss Football Soccer F1. This is, of course, hosted by
friends Victor Vialba, Spanish Voice of the Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Mavericks, who are off to a
scintillating one and three start. Carlos Nava, ESPN Deportase, NFL, MLB and BA Boxing in soccer. I
believe he's at the World Series right now. It works all the time. Also, Norm Hitzkiss has come
out of retirement to join us with his weekly, but I think it's tri-weekly podcasts where he talks
a little bit about DFW sports amongst other things. It's great to have Norm back on the air. Also,
we will be launching soon. I believe in this week or next Area 51 featuring John Henry,
longtime Fort Worth journalist who goes back into the world of true crime. If true crime is your
thing, and I don't get it, some people love true crimes. Well, sometimes they're fascinating.
John did this podcast a couple of years ago for a different platform and now he's brought it back
and it's given a listen, Area 51, as well as a soccer show featuring Mr. Taylor Kern
and without, of course, I don't know why I always wait till the last one because it's on the last
page and you think by now I would have memorized this. Your dark companion featuring Mr. Mike Reiner,
the award-winning, your dark companion. Now, back to my show. You had almost 700 interviews for this
book and someone who's written a couple books and interviewed people. I'm so impressed and inspired
by that persistence to interview anybody who has any tangential relationship with the subject.
It just astounds me because of the time acquired and then knocking on the doors required.
Was there anybody you didn't get, Jeff, that you really wanted or you thought, well,
how they'd be good, good at it. Is there anybody you didn't get? It sounds me like you got everybody.
Oh, many, many, many people. I didn't get anyone. I wanted to talk to his aunt and
Glow. I didn't get anyone from the, oh, you'll like this journalistically. I want to get someone from
the Tupac Shakur estate, right? And the estate is now run by two people who are not related to
Jubok and then his, his aunt, Glow a little bit. And I reached out to someone from the estate and
they were nice. They weren't jerks or anything. But the woman said to me, we might talk to you, but
first you have to provide us with a list of everyone you interviewed for your book. I'm like, yeah,
I'm not doing that. I'm not giving you a list of my interviews. I'm sorry. I'm not doing that.
I didn't get, he went to high school with Jada Pinkett. I didn't get J. Pinkett. I went to,
I went to the Miami Festival of Books because she was having an event. And I thought, maybe I could
get her there. I bought my Jada Pinkett sign book. I sat in this event. It was me and about 300
women. Like I had to be the only guy there. I don't know if we're because Jada's talking about
the keys to a good marriage. Like a lot of it was like the keys to a good marriage. And women are like,
you preach, girl, you speak it. I'm like, what twilight's don't have I entered?
A, that you're not going to need a pink up book of that and B that's he's talking to people
about how to have a good marriage and see they're eating it up. Like, what is going on here?
It was weird. Is there any favorite anecdote that you uncovered that was? I don't know,
just something that resonated with you. Maybe with the general population, but for you and
everything. I mean, man, there were a lot. I um, you heard the brand has got a baby story.
Oh, yeah, that's right. I won't even go into that. But sure, that was a big one for me.
Another big one was, um, I mean, I went to this is like,
the amount of work you put into these things. I feel like other writers appreciate it,
but most people don't. And they're like, people will be like, oh, you're just, you know,
you're just blank. You're just capitalizing. You're just trying to get rich. You're just trying
to blank. And they don't understand how much you bleed on these things, right? Like sincerely.
I flew to Lumberton, North Carolina from California because two pox mom was from there. And I wanted
to take through the archives of the library. And they, I went to Lumberton library, show up,
it opens at whatever nine in the morning. I'm there at 901. And the archives machine, the newspaper
machine is broken. Literally, it says machine is out of order. I'm like, frickin, fuck.
So I, um, yeah, some relatives who lived in Lumberton, some cousins, and I went to visit them.
And one of the guys is hired by the two pox decor estate to care for his mom's old house,
his mom a Phoenish court before she died. Obviously before she died, bought a house in her old hometown,
built a house, beautiful home and a large swath of land. And this guy was a caretaker. And he's like,
do you want to, you know, I have to go over to the house today. Just want to come with me and you
can see the house. And I was like, oh, yeah, that'd be great. So I go to a Phoenish court's house.
And I walked through the house, I mean, into her house, two pox mom's house, which is really cool.
And all these like, she died in 2016. So it's been dead for almost a decade. But a lot of her
possessions are still in like boxes in the corners and I'm taking notes. And then the guy said to me,
do you want to see two pox grave? And I'm like, that's weird because two pox, everyone
knows his ashes were spread off the Pacific in a ceremony in Malibu. And he basically told me, um,
a Phoenish save some of the ashes and bury them on the property. So I'm like, yeah. So if anyone,
to talk to your young journalist out there, if anyone ever says you want to see the grave of
somebody you're writing about, always say yes. So I, I follow him out. And there's a tombstone
on the property, two pox, a core, two pock, a marshal core, birthed the date death.
And she buried some of his ashes there and I had it confirmed. So I'm standing above two pox
accords grave on an abandoned property in Lumberton, North Carolina. Now imagine if Maryland,
Monroe was buried in like somewhere in like San Angelo, Texas, just happened to be somewhere
where Dim Morrison is in Brewster, New York behind the store. Oh, yeah, we just buried him here.
That would be the equivalent of this like two pox, a core is great. And standing above it,
I was like, man, all right, this trip was worth it, you know, one out of 10. How fucked up was
this childhood in upbringing? 10 is the most. Yeah, one out of 10, 240, 240. Was it worse than
like Tyson's? Right there with it, like right there with it, among other things. First of all,
again, his mom when he was when she was pregnant with him was literally in jail.
Um, she, um, here's born in an abject poverty to a single mom black Panther who they never had
a steady home. He probably went to overall, I would say 12 different schools. Never had a father
figure around his first sexual experience came at 14 with a cousin. His second sexual experience
came at 15 with a friend of his mother. Um, they had rats running up and down the floor board of
his father, Baltimore, a row house. No, he had no air conditioning, bounced around from school
to school, just a brutally, brutally hard, hard existence of poverty. He was a kid with duck teeth
with bad teeth, a buck feet, bad teeth, thrift store clothes, no athleticism, kind of an ugly duckling
until he found himself. So just the absolute, absolute, absolute picture of the worst childhood
two boxed it for real. Uh, I don't know if anybody's asked you this or not, but you wrote about a
subject where there's a particular use of a word that's common and that's the N word. Yeah,
which for a white person is in no fly zone. Um, was that a challenge at all the navigate for you
either in interviews or writing it? Um, huh. You know what's funny is people ask me why didn't you,
why didn't you, did you do the audio for your book? I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. I did not do
the audio. No, you have a good voice. You should do the other. Yeah, I'm not doing this. I'm good.
I didn't read. Here's like his second album title is strictly for my blank. What does it mean?
Like, and then true back to the album, strictly for my N word. And every time it's like N word,
N word, N word, I couldn't do it. Um, it wasn't. Yeah, that was not. I was going to call Mac.
See if Mac wanted to do it. I didn't want to see if Mac wants to end his career.
The funny thing is I grew up in a town where people, not myself and my house we knew and my best
friend down was my closest friend growing up was one of the two black kids in my town.
But where the N word was used all the time and you grew up hearing it all the town of you grew up
in a world like that. But it was, no, I grew up, but I, you know, this is not something that I,
I remember we would use the word occasionally. And I had black friends. I grew up in a pretty
integrated school system. And when I was in middle school, there's, there's like four or five words
that we used. And I didn't use it often. And I do remember being scolded by my mom when,
when she heard me use it. And I was probably in the sixth grade. And then I never did again.
Yeah. And it wasn't often, but it was no one thought anything of it. You don't know until you know,
you don't know. I remember when I was a kid, I'm, I grew up in a pretty freaking racist town.
And my best friend, John Powell, he actually introduced me to hip-hop. It's totally a cliche,
but he was the one who introduced me to the music. I would not be writing this book probably for
weren't for John Powell. I'd be listening to white snake and arosmith and all the crap music they
listened to. Instead, I was getting into hip-hop. But I mean, I remember my brother coming home from
school one day and telling a racist joke at the table. And I saw just being stunned. And for
some reason, I don't know if you experience this. I feel like for me being brought up in an
almost all-white environment, becoming a sports fan was kind of a salvation for me as cliche and
try as that sounds. I remember loving like reading sports illustrated and seeing like, like my
favorite player is Ken Griffey senior. My favorite athlete of all time is Ken Griffey senior. My second
is Gary Templeton, where my third is Jair Richard. Those are my three guys, right? Jair Richard
was a badass. Yeah. But what I think I really drew was drawn to them initially was like
afros, lampshops, sideburns, chains, Gary with two Rs. Gary Templeton, Gary Templeton telling the
fans, giving them the middle finger, I mean, dragged off, like I loved, it sounds weird. I love
badass, black and Latino athletes. I love names like Joaquin and Malik and Gary with two Rs.
And I love seeing rent like five wristbands and the styles of like the afro sitting all cool,
the hat sitting atop. Yeah. Like, I loved that stuff. Like I didn't just like, like,
loved. I don't know why I can't explain to you, but I feel like I was given by sports
this access to something that really intrigued me and because of that, it sounds corny by really
believe it. And then listening to hip hop music and all of a sudden, I had a teacher, Mr. McGee,
I swear to God, history teacher, eighth grade, I believe, male pack junior high school who taught us
that blacks can't ski or swim. And I'm just laughing. Wow. Literally told us in a class,
I used to work at, I remembered vividly, we used to work at, I used to work in a
reform school, the funniest thing, we would take these kids on ski trips and the black kids can't
ski, blacks can't skate so funny. That was a world I grew up in, right? True story. That's
where I grew up in. So like going to the male pack library on my own, no one of my family cared
about sports at all except for me, digging through the old size. And I remember seeing like
Wendell Tyler and just thinking, God, name Wendell Tyler is so cool. Even though if you think about
a Wendell, it's not a cool name, but on him, it seemed cool. Yeah. It seemed like Jackie Harris,
right? And like Freeman McNeil and Jackie Slater. What about Jackie Slater? Yeah. They were just
cool. Like they were cooler than us. And there was about that. That just did it for me. And I just
really think opened my mind in a world that wasn't very open minded, you know? And like you would never
in my town, you would never take like if you were one of the two black kids in my grade, you,
you were only going to the prom if you could find a date who was black. A white girl was not going to
go to you. Like that's just a fact. That's a fact. That's just what it was. I remember my friend
couldn't not get a date. And he was like a smart, good looking. He went to the Naval Academy.
Like very smart, far more accomplished than me. Couldn't get a date for the prom. That was a
world I grew up in. And I honestly think sports and then hip hop opened my mind in ways that
they probably would have been opened. You know, for me, that athlete was Eric Davis, the former
a bit long time major league baseball. It was cool. I loved Eric. Oh, I thought Eric Davis is
the biggest badass ever. And that I'm on time. But oh, he was a me. He was so good. And he got
injured and he bounced around a lot of different teams. But boy, when he was young, God, he was good.
And I revered him. And then I met him when he was with the giants. I should like Eric Davis.
Well, when I met him, he was a little edgy that day. And then at the end of the interview,
and I said, you know, I got to tell you this. I used to walk around high school with your
baseball card in my wallet. And at one point, this is a true story. I had E 44 carved in the back
of my head. And then his attitude changed. That is out of two changes. That's what he called
a security. Then he called it security. That's how he premiered. This is a little off. Wait, no,
I'm being serious about this. I bet you agree with me. I just think like the one thing we have
been granted access to, but I really mean this. Like I think a lot of people would look at an
athlete like Eric Davis or Bo Jackson or Barry Bond or Bobby Bond or whoever and be like, God,
Reggie Jackson, God, why are these guys such assholes? Like, why are they so why they said to
Dick? And then you do this job. And you learn a little about their story and their background.
It even applies to Tupac when it's like, God, why was he this way in that way? And it's like
he grew up with rats running through his house with no air conditioning and no heat, okay?
To a single mom who is a crack addict. Did you expect him to be well adjusted? Would you be well
adjusted? And most people don't, they just see the asshole or they just see the jerk or they just
see the behavior. And I feel like one thing we've been fortunate about through this profession is
we're able to at least have a slice of understanding to what they went through. And that it's not, if
it were us. And what these experiences of being poor and black and traumatized in America is
drastically different than me with my parents knowing I was going to go to college and have a meal
every night in warm and summer tasty. It's it's a different life. It's a different experience.
It's a different America. It's a different world. And I've tried to tell people that who get
irritated with some of these guys sometimes. And you know, I remember having a conversation with
a long time. Then I fell a corner back. He's a great guy named Terrence Newman. Terrence played.
You remember Terrence? Dallas Cowboy in Cincinnati. That's right. Yeah. And just a wonderful, wonderful
guy. Kansas State. Yeah. And so I am a loser. No, no, no, he was he was in the NFL for like
almost 20 years. I don't know about how many losers. No, he went to Kansas State, played for the
Cowboys in the backers. I mean, come on. Now four percent of guess maybe. Yeah. Do you know his
last team that he finished his career with? Panthers. Believe it was the Vikings. So anyways, I call
the Vikings. And I say, can I get him increasingly Jeff getting these guys to do interviews is just
becoming because they don't need me anymore. I need them more than they need me. And but he called
me because he remembered me when I covered the team. And he said something to me that was really
profound because Terrence grew up and there's some real challenges there. But Terrence's point was
about because your point about Bobby bonds or Barry bonds or any of these other guys is right.
And Terrence's point was you get to a certain point in your life of a adulthood where it doesn't
matter anymore. You, you, you know right from wrong. And I do think sometimes that we have to
account for those upbringing for certain guys or whoever it is and give them that space to say,
listen, I understand why. But I also like, dude, you're 25 years old. You're 30 years old.
It's not about get over it. But it's about saying you can't necessarily always use that as an
excuse or a fallback to be a bad person. I don't think people are, I don't think necessarily,
because I don't think a lot of people think of themselves as bad people like Reggie Jackson has
treated people notoriously assolley for years, right? Yeah. I don't think you growing up with a ton
of whatever racism or hatred or whatever gives you the right eternally to treat people like shit.
But I also think it helps explain maybe where that comes from and maybe where the resentment comes
from. Can you explain to me why Barry bonds that you told the story? I think I'm press box
chronicles or whatever about Barry bonds and the Pittsburgh Pirates photographer. No, Barry
bonds is an asshole. I don't like I can't I'm sorry. There's no way and I remember interviewing
guys with the giants who played with them. And they all understood like this is a bad guy. Yeah,
he was a bad guy. I mean, but he in a way is an interesting mixture because bonds was a mixture
of a dad who faced a ton of racism, right? Yeah. And yet, so bonds has that experience mixed with
being kind of an entitled brat. So he had both mixed into one. Yes. Unusual stew of
those these kind of nice now. So what's it people say is much easier to do? What do I, I don't know?
Well, they all do that. Once they follow the linelight and they realize nobody cares about who
they who they are anymore. I'm looking at the transformation Randy Johnson has undergone. Yeah.
Right. Oh, yeah. I'll sit down. I'll take pictures. This is the guy who punched a camera. Yeah.
Right. All right. Let's finish this up because I've kept you too long. Did this book, did this book
make you sad? Oh, it's the saddest book I've ever written and the whole experience made me sad.
And my different friends who read it who work in hip hop are like it's like learning that Santa
class doesn't exist. Like it was yeah, profoundly. First of all, he dies at the end and he dies at
the 25 years old. So like he died before he was even a fully formed adult in a lot of ways.
All right. And also just again, like reading about the trauma after trauma after trauma, I think
when I enter this, I did think of Tupac largely as like thug life Tupac and I get around Tupac and
this guy and the women love him and he's in these movies. At the end of the day, man, he was just a
traumatic figure who died far too young. It sucks. So yeah. Who is the interview that you have not had a
chance to do yet, but is still on your bucket list? Not as it relates to any particular subject,
but just that one person that you really, really want to interview and they're still alive and
they're still a chance, but you haven't had a chance to do it yet. Oh, Trump. He's
ready to go. I was so much money to see you do that. Well, because you know what bothers me. Like,
I don't know, Matt, I feel like it needs to be a sports rider who actually gives Trump a good
interview because all these people, a bunch of freaking cowards and they're like, sir, blah, blah, blah,
and like we're used to at least holding people to account and we're at least used to confrontation
and we're used to being like, we've all been to mean. If you're a sports rider, especially coming up
and we did, you've been to me and you've been shit on. You've been marginalized. You've been put in your
place. So like, well, we just bounce back from it. So like, I'm tired of all these people being so
deferential in their interviews. Like he's lying. If you're lying, fucking call someone out and lying.
Like be blunt and honest and direct and stop like, okay, next question. Like always moving on
to the next question when you lie. Like, I just say, like people from our background and up
are bringing our ideal. But instead, he goes on TV and he insults the interviewer and he just
goes to the next person. I would take Trump in a second. I'm not saying I've disappointed me the most.
All over me. They're going. I'm sorry. The one that disappointed me the most. I have a lot of
respect for 60 minutes and Leslie Stalin. A lot of the great because a lot of them are John
obviously, he's worked with him for a while. He's a contributor. The terrific interviewers in
Leslie. I don't know. I was really bummed the way Leslie handled interviews with him. And
Marjorie Taylor Green. Marjorie Taylor. Oh, that one was like, you know what's interesting?
I had no problem. Like a lot of people were mad. 60 minutes was doing Marjorie Taylor Green.
I had zero problem with that. I think she is an important person in America. But like, I agree
with you. The interview itself, it was like, she's just going to let, she's just going to let her
say this stuff and not even, yeah. So I'm with you. Yeah. Okay. Last question. What's your next book?
My next book is a memoir about my first two and a half years as a journalist in Nashville.
It is a book that I think maybe 12 people have I has it there. I have to find.
Well, I'm going to make sure that Amazon sells out. Man, I think they did sell out. Now
this is my book isn't available. What is it going to be out? I don't know. Two years is doing
January. Yeah. I've been kind of messing with it. It's a hard work to write. I know you are
beaten down from this process. But I want to thank you very much for giving me your time.
Congratulations on the book. I mean, Mac, I'm being serious about this. Like we are like,
it's different. Like we're all in the same gang. Like we're all like at the end, and to be honest
with you, at the end of the day, the people who have helped me with the most of this book are
people in sports. Like because it's like, it's like a kinship among men and women. Well, you're
horrible with compliments. And I'm going to give you one that's a that's a lesson that I've that you
did. And I use this for my intro. When I met you at the Texas Rangers Clubhouse, I was a little
intimidated to go up to you. Oh my god. What? I know. Right. I know that I understand.
Very intimidating. No, no, it's not because I knew who you were. I mean, I knew you by your
reputation and a colleague of mine, T.R. Sullivan, or you know, T.R. said, yeah, go tell you his great
guy. And I didn't know. And it re just if you're nice to people, it just reaffirms,
just be nice to people. And I understand times it's really hard. It's really hard sometimes. I mean,
so if you can be nice to people like you have done, obviously over a long, long, great best
selling career, it will work out. I don't know about every time, but most of the time. And so
I'm really grateful for that and the fact that you've always been very, very, very generous with
your time. I know, but Mac, I just want to say, I'm being serious about this. I feel like
I actually find it weird when people say that because like, why? Because I know like you're as
accomplished as I am if not more so. So no, I'm being serious. No, no, no, no, doing deflect on
it. And even like, but I want to say more importantly, what you said is 100% true. And it's just like,
it's a thousand percent true. If you treat people kindly and you're decent to people,
people remember that. And there's no reason, if a, there's no reason to big leak people,
or I don't even understand people who do that. Like what? Anyone? Like I stopped being intimidated
by fame a long time ago, because like, what am I intimidated by? Like what makes you any more
valuable than me or me more valuable than someone else? We're all going to die one day. We all go
to the bathroom. We all like, it's ridiculous. It's this created construct and society that makes
no sense. So like to me, talking to you is like, you know, wow, man, look at always ridden and blah,
blah, blah. I swear to God, not to say that. So I appreciate your kind words. But to me, we're all
just in the same gag of, you know, losers trying to write. Well, congratulations again.
Thank you. And you're family. Thanks so much for your time. I look forward to bugging you down
the road. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, Jeff. That was great. By the way, thank you so much.
And it's life goes on. Oh, no, I'm an in. And it's life goes on. I ain't trying to lose my friends. Oh,
God, keep blessing me. This is a stolen water media production.