Is Journalism Dead? TCU, Pablo Torre & the NBA’s Access Wars | Mac Engel

Another reason why I am mad at my mom and my dad, they didn't tell me it was gonna be this hard. Mac Engel, Fort Worth Star Telegram, Ingle Engel podcast, Sunset Lounge, Stolen Water Media. Happy September, everybody. Happy football season. And if you live in the great state of Texas, happy fall, or the weather is now only 99 degrees. I've lived here for thirty years. I am over summertime stretching into the middle of September. I mean, come on. I I understand climate change and all this other stuff, but give us a break. It's a 100 degrees in September. Give us 99. I can deal with 98. But come on. One zero one on September 8? What did we do to deserve this? Who did we make angry? Topic du jour is whether or not journalism has a place any longer in sports and entertainment media. I've given this subject a lot of thought, really over the last two weeks. And specifically because an incident occurred with my pace of employment, the Fort Worth Star Telegram with TCU, a school that, an athletic department specifically, that the Fort Worth Star Telegram has covered forever. And as many of you know, some of you may not, there was an incident between the TCU athletic department and specifically its football team where we ran a story that they really didn't agree with. And they banned us from covering. They grand they basically banned us from media access. I'm not gonna get into the specifics of it because there's no reason to. But I will say that Fort Worth star telegram very much stood by why it did what it did and justified it. And there was just a disagreement. I'm gonna say this for the record. I've said it a few times. I like everybody over at TCU. I've had a great relationship with them. I expect to have a good relationship with them moving forward. This wasn't necessarily anything about me, but it affected me and my colleagues at the Fort Worth Star Telegram. And this was just a big point of disagreement, which has been handled a few days ago when TCU had a meeting with my superiors. They basically said, All of access to Fort Worth Star Telegram has been restored. And that's that. But it got me this whole thing got me and it became a national story. And my phone just absolutely blew up. I could not get off the phone for two weeks or however many days it was. It was about two weeks, maybe longer than that. And I was on the phone twenty five hours a day talking about it and trying to explain it. And like I said, the weird part about it was this wasn't even about me, but it totally affected me. And it did get me to thinking about just how journalism in its place exists in sports. Now if you pair that with a much larger story, much larger story, there's something going on in the NBA right now and NBA media that you could ask the same question. And that is where does and broaden it to ESPN. And because ESPN is gonna catch strays on a lot of things because it has the media rights, the television rights to so many different properties from college football and all of the other major sports. So they're gonna catch some strays in this, which by the way, totally deserves. But this has to do with the Los Angeles Clippers being punished severely by the NBA for its efforts to circumvent the salary cap in order to give forward Kawhi Leonard a number of years ago, a lot more money than what was going to be allowed by the salary cap. And the reporting that originally went on involved in that, that exposed that deal. And then the reporting that countered it and refuted it by ESPN. And ultimately the decision that said, No, the original reporting about it done by a terrific reporter, a man who has now become synonymous with top sports journalism in Pablo Torre, who exposed this one more than a year ago. Basically, ESP, pardon me, the NBA said, no, he got it right. And it got me thinking about where does all of this fit now? And it's changed so dramatically since I entered this field. Let's just round it up and say as a sophomore or junior in college. That's when I started doing this and started really learning about it. Now, when I was in high school, I did some things in my high school newspaper, and we had a high school radio station where I did some stuff, I kind of got a little bit of a peek into it. Really it started when I was in college. And then obviously it grew from there when I was really more on the PR side, first five years out of college, before I went over to the dark side and, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Then continued on in covering professional sports and seeing how this has all changed since then. Now, as I sit here on the other side of 50 and seeing how this has all changed, I do often wonder, I don't know if journalism has a place anymore. And what I've come to learn is I was wrong. It does. It may not have the place where it once enjoyed, but having been able to see in real numbers, real time consumption, metrics that we can now witness as they occur, yes, it still very much has a place. It may never enjoy the place it once enjoyed, but it still has a place. And now more than ever, we need it because if we don't have it, then the people who are in charge are going ahead, are going to continue to go ahead and circumvent the rules to whatever feel they feel is in their best interest. So let me give you sort of the through line of this and how this all began. If you look at sports and sports journalism, major league baseball became the behemoth that it did in the first part of the twentieth century for a couple of reasons. Number one, it had no real competition. Pro football didn't exist. Pro basketball didn't exist. Pro hockey didn't exist. College football existed, but that was still a pretty small sport boxing and horse racing. Those were the two other big sports, but those weren't leagues. Those were essentially independent contractors going around staging events, kinda like you would a circus. So the way it was covered was differently. Whereas major league baseball that had a centrality to it that we did not have before. And as those leagues grew, it's not a coincidence that it aligned that its rate of growth aligns with the media coverage that it received in terms of sports newspapers dedicating ink space to their pages. And then ultimately with the advent of radio airtime to airing those games, the rise of major league baseball, the rise of eventually professional football, you can see a rise in that is completely analogous with the amount of coverage that it received from news organizations. And that is why all of those leagues and all of those teams prioritized cultivating relationships and giving priority to those news organizations. Those teams, those leagues needed to be associated with those news or entertainment organizations in order to make more money, in order to sell more tickets. That's what the paradigm was. So that's why you saw the NFL, all these other leagues, the NBA, go out of their way, go out of their way to create relationships, positive relationships, favorable relationships with all those different news organizations and entertainment news organizations because they had the airtime to publicize and advertise for those games. And because it was under the banner of the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Dallas Morning News, CBS, NBC, or any other other major outlet in those respective markets and or nationally, it gave them a level of credibility that they could not buy. And that's what they were. They were sellers, and news organizations were buyers. Then news organizations acted like, come here, entertain us, do bend over for us, do whatever it is that we need, do whatever it is that we ask for, and then we will give you the coverage that you desire. And when we do that, then you will see people flock to your games and flock to your events. That's what the model was. So those leagues and those teams and those people wanted to be associated with those big outlets and platforms. And it existed that way for decades. And then in the mid eighties and late nineties, pardon me, mid nineties, that started to change just a little bit as enormous amounts of money started to flow into the National Football League, the NBA, Major League Baseball with these massive TV contracts provided by ESPN, CBS, Fox Sports, NBC, all of which wanted to televise those games because those games were worth a ton in ratings and ratings generated ad revenue. And then that existed for a little while longer. But in the meantime, it still was worth a great deal amount of money to those teams and those leagues and those organizations up to and including entertainment companies that wanted to create relationships with those other platforms because it gave them such favorable exposure because they all recognized one thing. Just talk about us. Just talk about us. With limited few exceptions, if you're just talking about us, then that translates ultimately into dollars. Even if it's negative, as long as you're talking about us, even if whomever the critic is, whether it's a movie critic, whether it's a sports critic, or whomever else, as long as you're talking about us, then we're relevant. So where that really started to change was with the advent of the Internet. And then the growth of all of these different platforms, news organizations that previously may may have existed under very, very small circumstances. I'm talking about a guy writing a newsletter out of his house about his favorite football team or favorite basketball team. Or more than likely, they didn't even exist at all. Now in the last ten to fifteen years, we have seen the rye creation rise and proliferation of influencers on spot journalists who do it with their own cell phone and things like that. And really what they are doing is just being granted access so they can be around their team that they like. They can get into a press box. They can get into a movie screening. They can get on the sidelines. And they're not really being honest in what they see and know about their team. They have been traded the right to be inside the room, just inside the ropes, really more like not inside the ropes, right by the ropes for favorable coverage. That's what they've done. And we have seen that all over the place. And I have asked this question of colleagues many times, do fans know the difference? Because in the last twenty years, we have seen teams and leagues all recognize the value of content. Content. Whatever it is, just content. And you will notice with the exception of maybe one team, all of it is favorable. All of it. None of it's negative. All of it is favorable. Whether it's nhl.com, mlb.com, whatever.com, all of it is favorable. The only exception to this rule is the Dallas cowboys because Jerry Jones, the owner of the cowboys, recognizes the value of just talking about us. And there is more editorial discretion on the part of dallas dallascowboy.com employees than virtually anybody else in entertainment media that is owned by works for that property. They have a little bit more leeway. No. They're not gonna go into certain places where I may be allowed to, but they still, they can call it out, but this isn't very good or whatever else. They're not mean, but they have more room than most. Because like I said, Jerry Jones and that family have recognized, just talk about us, just talk about us because that's the value. So now what's changed is this. All of these relationships in entertainment media have become more transactional and it has pushed conventional journalism and journalists into a very awkward spot. And I'll tell you what that is here in a second. Hello. It's Mike Reiner of Your Dark Companion here. Let me ask you. Are you looking for something to fill the long dead air hours of your day? Join the Sunset Lounge DFW and your dark companion on patreon.com, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. Replace those sad, slow hours with sports, pop culture, music woven into interesting conversations. So step inside the green door, have a seat at the bar, and get in the groove with those shows and so very much more. So something that we recognized, anybody in my job has recognized some time ago, is that there was a flip in power. Whereas the sports team, the sports league, or whomever else recognized they needed us. They needed us. Now the balance has shifted is you need us. So we're not going to just play by whatever rules that you want. So we're going to be far more restrictive in access. We're going to own some of our own content before you get it. And potentially, if we don't like what you're doing, we're just going to take it away. I'll give you an example of this. One of the things that my career has done quite unexpectedly a number of years ago was branch into dabble in entertainment journalism, entertainment stories. Like I said, this was a total accident. It was something that I wanted to do when I was younger. I decided if I could, I would be a poor man's Bob Costas. Poor is the operative word there. But I wanted the opportunity to explore different spaces beyond just sports. And one of the great things about working at the Fort Worth Star Telegram and the wonderful people that I've worked with is that they have given me the space to do that. Very fortunate to do that. So it's given me an opportunity to interview all these different people and do things that are far beyond just the basketball game, the football game, or the baseball game. And those have given me with no complaint, those have given me wonderful experiences and tremendous opportunities, life experiences, life opportunities that I'm very grateful for. But if you add in these other parts, movies, music reviews, interviewing artists, things like that, a few other people, it's great, and I'm very fortunate. That includes doing some interviews involving artists. Miranda Lambert, Vince Gill, Johnny Resnick, the lead singer of the Goo Goo Dolls. There's been a whole bunch. A whole bunch. Kevin Hart. Who else? I can't even remember how many of them there were. Brian Gosling. And to that particular interview, I'll share with you this anecdote. And I wanna preface it by saying this is not a criticism in any way, shape, or form. It's just used to illustrate, to show you how the balance of power has shifted. So a number of years ago, Ryan Gosselin was coming out with a new movie called First Man. And it was about it's a bio basically of astronaut Neil Armstrong and telling the story of the moon landing. One detail about doing usually any kinds of entertainment coverage of movies is that the studio asks, you need to see the movie before you interview any of the players. So when I did a movie, when I and had an opportunity to interview Aaron Sorkin, the Academy Award winning. I think he won the Academy Award. He should screenwriter and director of Few Good Men, Moneyball. In this particular case, he was making the rounds for the movie about Steve Jobs. And they said, really you gotta see the movie before you interview. Like, okay. So I saw the movie. Ran over to Dallas, and I saw it. It's good. I enjoyed it. And I saw him the next morning at 07:00 in the morning, and we talked for fifteen minutes, and fifteen minutes is over. Bye. Although the funny part about that interview, I remember he was a very nice man. We're just sitting there in a hotel ballroom essentially around a table. He's a graduate of Syracuse University, and he really wanted to talk about Syracuse football and Syracuse basketball, and even TCU football. He was interested in that. But that's kind of how those go. Very nice guy. And everything I wrote was fine. So normally what you do in those cases, especially if you're me, because you usually get either fifteen minutes on the dot or twenty minutes on the dot, is how can I take advantage of this very rare opportunity of that much face to face time with an A lister? That's what I'm always thinking about. How can I get more out of this than just one interview? So I'll give you an example. So this, as it relates to the Ryan Gosling interview, two other people who were made available for that were Neil Armstrong's sons. At that particular time, now Neil was gone. Neil has been gone for many years, but his sons are middle aged and they live, I think Ohio and Colorado or something, but they were part of the promotional efforts for that movie. And I really did enjoy the movie, by the way. So they bring his sons in And I knew there was one subject that I wanted to ask them about because I thought they would have an opinion about it. And that was at the time Donald Trump, president Trump was coming up with a new branch of, I guess, the military space force. And I know that drew a lot of laughter and comments, but it was a very serious thing. I mean, obviously, that was something that we had not done before as a country was to develop space force. And I asked Neil Armstrong's kids what their father might have thought about that. They did great with it. And one of the guys I came on with son said, I got this. And he gave a terrific answer. So I wrote it. And I got probably, I think, three stories out of that whole press availability. And I wanna say this, Ryan Gosling and whomever the director was, I'm blanking on his name, couldn't have been any nicer. Ryan Gosling was great. And he I was the last one who was interviewing him that morning. And he was kind of ass whipped. And the part that I remember about it, I had taken my daughter to see the movie. She was probably seven or eight at the time. And I said, I'm gonna interview these guys tomorrow. Do you want me to ask any questions? And she had a question or two. And I thought, oh, that'll that'll be a really good icebreaker. That'll that'll change the mood. And it totally did. They really enjoyed it. But anyways, my point is those are the stories that I wrote. And one of them was Neil Armstrong's kids reacting to the creation of space force. Okay. No big deal. Come and goes. A few months later, the comedian Kevin Hart is in DFW to promote his new movie. I think it was called night school. And the, the, the, the promoters give me him in his, like a hotel suite. And I interview him for fifteen minutes and he's, he is a pro's pro. Kevin Hart was a pro's pro who was on time, had a whole bunch of entourage, comes in and shake his hands. He sits down. He says, do you mind if I eat a sandwich while I'm doing this interview? Orders a club sandwich. And we sit there and converse. And what I realized quickly is that he's there to promote that movie. He's selling the storylines. He's selling the character, which is fine. He's not on TV. He's not sitting there firing off one liners, you don't see the Kevin Harts of this and this and this, and he's quick with him. Is just being interviewed by me with a recorder. And I thought, you know? And so I asked him two questions that are a little bit away from the movie. I know he's an enormous sports fan and a basketball fan. So I asked him one question about Dirk Nowitzky, the Dallas Mavericks retiring forward. I think he was retiring at the time. And he kind of gives me a flat answer. I was hoping for something sort of funny. And then the other one, I thought he will have a good opinion about this. Kevin Hart is from Philadelphia. Bill Cosby is from Philadelphia. And at the time, Cosby was very much in the news for a list of tragic reasons, mostly sexual, a lot of sexual assault charges against him over the years, which completely crushed the image of that man to millions of Americans, and it painted him as a predator. It's disgusting. I know that's a sensitive subject, and I preface it to Kevin Hart saying, I have one more question for you. And if you don't wanna answer it, I totally get it. But you're a Philadelphian. You're a stand up comedian. Bill Cosby was a hero for a lot of us. It changed. And I asked the question. He gives a dynamite answer. So I do like three or four different stories based on the availabilities that was given to me at that time. I don't hear anything back. Take that back. I do get one phone call from a press person, PR person, says, Why did you do that? They weren't mad. They weren't mad, but I explained my logic. And I said, Well, I got this access, and I was respectful about it. I just figured that was a good access, and it's just talking about it. Okay. So then I never heard from that person. I didn't hear from that person again for a long, long time. And after a while, suspect, Okay, I know what's going on. And what was going on was basically studios are saying, Yeah, we don't have to do this. But we don't we don't have to do this. Whereas in the past, they would deal with it. Now they don't have to. They can find other media outlets, platforms, podcasters, YouTubers, bloggers. I don't think bloggers are a thing anymore. But anybody like that who's creating content who will not go there. I wasn't putting anybody in a bad light. I wasn't putting the studio in a bad light. I was asking an adult a fair question about a topic where they would be an expert. And twenty five years ago, that was totally fair game. Those within the sidelines, no one would have said anything. Today, it's totally different. I've alluded to this particular conversation in a previous podcast, I think the last one. And the point was, we understand why you did it. We're not mad why you did it. We totally get why you did it. We just don't wanna be associated with it. Okay. I get it. That is conventional traditional journalism. And in that space, what entertainment media is saying, yeah, we don't we don't really want that. And entertainment media is far, far more forgiving than sports media. But there has been a considerable overlap of the two in the last fifteen years, where we are seeing now way, way more of sports media people who are saying, Okay, I get it. I won't do any of that. I won't ask anything remotely associated with that because I need your brand and to be affiliated with your brand and the access that you give me more than you need the number of eyeballs that I may bring to you. There are limited exceptions of that remaining, very limited. Vanity Fair may be one of them. Sixty Minutes is still one of them, although that is changing a lot here in the last year. I don't think CBS News falls into that category much anymore. And I'm not necessarily picking on one particular platform or outlet rather. I'm just saying increasingly the brands, the studios, the leagues, the conferences, the teams, the players, the entertainers have all said, yeah. I don't need you. You need me. So if you need me, you're gonna play by these rules unless you give me a whole bunch of money. And that's where Disney, ESPN, ABC, Fox, CBS, NBC have all entered the discussion because they are now money partners with these people. And there is some kind of priority that they feel you're gonna talk to us, but then there's also the mutual understanding of, we'll talk to you and we will prioritize you, but we're not going there. Or if we do, it's going to be very muted. And that continues to push conventional traditional journalism into a much, much smaller space. Now you have the rise of influencers, podcasters, who may have an enormous following, and they're glorified fans. I have nothing against that genre. There's a market for it. There's a demand for it. People like it. We've seen it everywhere. I see it in high school football games. I see it really see it in college football games. We've seen it at the US Open, which is currently ongoing with all these people coming around, posing for things. Listen, this is the new champagne product you've got. Look at the shirts and the hats and they're selling this. And that's fine. And they are eating up that space because of eyeballs. And the model will never go back to where it was when I started. But there is still a space for it. And this is how I know. One, I've lived it. Two, I can see it in real time. And three, if you're looking for a national story, look no further than what Pablo Torrey did. Pablo Torre last year reported that the Los Angeles Clippers led by owner Steve Ballmer circumvented the NBA salary cap in order to sign Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi Leonard's a badass player. Steve Ballmer is a cofounder of Microsoft, has more money than he might have more money than anybody in the NBA, which is astonishing. And he wants to win. He wants to make the Clippers relevant in Los Angeles, which is very difficult because of the existence of the Dodgers and the Lakers. It's very hard. So what do you do? You overpay, and you can't overpay because you have the money to do it. And rules rules are for losers. Pablo Torre exposes it. The NBA says we're investigating it. Cynics like me said, you're not investigating it. You're not gonna punish an owner like that. Give me a break. Even though there was precedence for the NBA doing just that back years ago with a guy named Joe Smith that the Minnesota Timberwolves cheated to sign to a bigger contract. And when the NBA find found out about it, they laid the hammer on the wolves. That was a different commissioner. That was a different time. And I thought, well, there's there's just they're not gonna do it. They'll come up with some pillow soft punishment and nothing will happen. Then as the date got closer, ESPN, which has a contract, TV contract with the NBA, some of its top reporters essentially refute the report by Pablo Torre and saying, this is not accurate. This is exaggerated. It's not that big of a deal. Nothing happened. And I hate saying that because one of them specifically is somebody I consider a friend and I have a tremendous amount of admiration for. And the other ones are highly credentialed sports journalists who've covered the NBA for a long time. I don't know what happened. To tell you, I know exactly what happened. They have friendships with all of those people who were telling them now this is what's going on and you believe it. You're like, yeah. Okay. They exaggerated this. It's it's happened to me. I, I know exactly what happened. You have a good friendship with that guy. You have their phone number. They call you back and they're telling you, is not true. This isn't really what happened. And it sounds plausible. And then you have somebody else tell you the same thing. And then another person tells you the same thing. And then you collectively combine for a report that refutes an independent report that exposes this whole mess. And then the NBA comes out led by Adam Silver commissioner who just drops the Titanic on top of the Clippers and Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer will have to pay a $30,000,000 fine, which is essentially couch cushion change for Steve Balmer, surrendering five first round draft picks. Now that's significant. He's suspended from being around the Clippers for a year. That's no small measure because this is his toy, and he wants to be around the team. No different than any other billionaire jack sniffer who buys these things. They wanna be around the team. And the NBA is saying, you can't. And then they suspended the team president of basketball operations for a year without pay. That's no joke. And it is a total vindication of Pablo Torre's original reporting and specifically the practice of traditional sports journalism. All the while, ESPN College Game Day still motors on as one of the most powerful TV products in sports media. Along with inside the NBA, college game day is by far and away the biggest monster in broadcast show. They travel around all these college campuses, and it's just a giant. It's just it's it's like a concert at every camp at every campus it goes to. And in the last couple of years, ESPN has transitioned to a personality who is extremely talented, and they give him all this money. And now the one thing we've seen with ESPN is if we're gonna give you all this money, we're gonna work it to death. And that's Pat McAfee, a former Indiana colt Indianapolis colts partner turned himself into a brand, and now he is basically the face of ESPN. ESPN, an organization that sells sports journalism, even though it stands for Entertainment Sports Programming Network. Not ABC News, not CBS News, not NBC News, entertainment, sports, programming, network. No mention of news. No mention of journalism. Sports, programming, network. Entertainment, sports. Those are the priorities. And when you watch that, you always have to make sure to know that is the priority, entertainment. And if journalism fits, okay. But for the most part, the most important thing is that you watch and then make a ton of money. So Pat McAfee is on there. And we have seen now a continued rise, proliferation of, and complete allowance of conflicts of interest. I don't even know if conflicts of interest used to be a reason that you would get fired. Now conflicts of interest are a reason you get hired and promoted because relationship journalism and insider access is just as valuable, sometimes more, than traditional journalism. It is. Look at NFL reporter for Fox, Jay Glazer. Jay Glazer has leveraged all of his relationships with NFL players and NFL agents to a really prominent position. Makes a ton of money. Is it a conflict of interest? Hell yes. It's conflict of interest. Do his bosses care? Nope. Look at any look at Pat McAfee. Pat McAfee on college game day's first show sits there with LSU coach Lane Kiffin, who has been dragged, deservedly so, all off season. And Lane Kiffin, sitting next to his former boss, Nick Saban, who is now an analyst, talking head for ESPN, Guys, thank you so much for your advice throughout all of this. Openly telling Nick Saban, Yeah, you're a big reason why I left Ole Miss to come to LSU is because of your guidance and counseling. Okay. That's not a conflict of interest. It is, but that's fine. Anything for you, coach. That's one thing about ESPN and and certainly Fox Sports. The jock sniffing and the jock idolization that goes on in these networks, don't dismiss it. Do not devalue it. Do not diminish it. Because when those people walk through the walk through the doors and that person's making the hiring, they turn into fawning little girls. Sign my ball coach. Here, how much more money can I give you? They all do it. No judgment. If they want to give me that kind of money, go ahead. So there's Lane Kiffin telling Pat McAfee, probably ESPN's highest paid employee, Gee whiz, thanks for our conversations. You're the best. No, you're the best. You're great. You're great. What is this? It's not journalism. Entertainment sports programming. That's what it is. And people like me have to get over ourselves and our self importance to think that why is one going to sit there and placate the other when it could potentially threaten relationships and more importantly, profit margins? Why would they? They wouldn't. So we see all of these transactional relationships. NBC Sports pays the NFL umpteen billions. Of course, they're gonna get preferential treatment. Of course they are. Anybody all it is, follow the money. Anybody who's giving those organizations a lot of money, yeah, they're gonna be given preferential treatment. It's not difficult. Now, the question within that paradigm is, where does journalism exist? Can it even fit? Can it fit if it gets kicked out? Yes. Yeah. I'm not so blind to think that that it isn't significantly more difficult than it was. I'm not so blind to think that the rate of consumption sometimes gets pushed to the side in favor of friendly journalism or entertainment sports programming. I know that. But in light of the reporting that I do see, the original reporting I do see, and now thanks to technology, we can see that rate of audience consumption in real time. I know there's still an audience for it. I know it. I can see it. I see it every day. I know what Pablo Torre did has value. The trouble is it's very expensive. Gotta pay for it. And what we know about the Internet is that people are tired of paying for stuff they don't wanna pay for. But now more than ever, with the rise and proliferation of friendly journalism and places that will just basically trade free publicity in exchange for access. Just let me on the sideline. I see guys do this all the time. Allow me in the press box, and I won't say anything bad. I see it all the time. The rise of those outlets and organizations has pushed people like me who was trained for to call it like you see it and to ask for both sides. Hey, what do you think? Now tell me what you think. We still have a place. It's not as big as it once was. It is expensive, but I know we still have a place, even if we disagree from time to time. We're all better off where we can live with each other and understand that sometimes the best way to talk through these things and understand that you need us, maybe not the same way you once did, but you still need us. And we wanna be there too because that's the way best way this works. See you next time. This is a Stolen Water Media production.