Marshall Newhouse on NFL Money, Loneliness & Life After Football | Marshall Newhouse | Engel Angle

I have very exciting news. I've decided to finally work on a new book. And when I'm done with that, I'm gonna read another one. Mac Engel, Fort Worth star telegram, Ingle Angle podcast, Sunset Lounge, Stolen Water Media. Thank you very much for joining me. Terrific guest today. We'll talk all things professional sports, specifically pro football and money. Something that has popped up in the last, I would say, two to three months is a preponderance of video clips on social media of retired athletes talking about their wealth. And this is the hottest of hot button subjects with me are people who sit there and talking about, well, a $100,000,000 really isn't that much, or $12,000,000 really isn't that much. And all I want to do is reach through my screen, whether it's computer screen or a phone or a tablet, and grab that person by the collar and say, do you have any idea how stupid you sound? Do you have any idea how much money that really is? And you're sitting there bitching about how much or how little a million dollars is? How tone deaf, how stupid, and how offensive do you know you are in those sentiments that you express here on whatever podcast? Shut your mouth. Be smart. Take care of your money. Quit acting like a victim that somehow a $50,000,000 contract isn't really that much. I am depressed. That is life altering money. And the people who are fortunate enough to work their way into that tax bracket through entertainment, whether it's movies, television shows, music, or in this particular case, professional sports, be grateful that you made it. You worked that hard. You're talented enough, and you are there in a place that most people, including yourself, however many years ago, would have killed to be in that spot. You're there. And somehow you're sitting there telling me that 10 to $12,000,000 isn't that much. I got a middle finger for you. So someone who has lived this life joined me for this particular episode, and we talk a little bit about that reality. The reality of wealth, money, spending money, how much really it is, and what it's like to be in that world as a professional athlete, and specifically how cutthroat it is. My appreciation for people who play professional sports has gone up exponentially the more I've covered it. My appreciation for people who make it to division one college sports has gone up tenfold since I've started to do this. Do you know how good you have to be to make a college team? I'm not talking about division three. I'm not talking about division two. I'm talking about a division one NCAA athletic institution. Do you know how good you are to be on that team? Do you know the percentages? Think about it when you were a kid and you were growing up playing sports. You might have known one or two people who made it on the college level. And again, I'm not talking about division three because the division three, that means the person is paying their own way. I'm talking about the division one person who is getting compensated in some form or fashion, whether it's books, whether it's meals, whether it's a full scholarship, or now in this case, NIL money. Do you know how good you have to be to make it on that level? Do you know the level of talent and dedication and work that that is associated, that is mandated and required to make it? Now cut that number down to about a handful. All those talented players on a college team, and now they have a chance to make it as a professional. Do you know how good you have to be to be the 20 player on a Major League Baseball roster? Do you know how great you have to be just to stink at the end of a bench on an NHL team? Do you know how much politicking, how many moons have to align if you're going to be a backup quarterback in the NFL making $950,000 or $1,200,000? Do you know how many things have to go right for you to be a swing tackle in the NFL? There are all these different parts to this that most people who watch this stuff can't even fathom. My guest for this episode is someone who was in that position, but eventually went on to live it for eleven seasons in the NFL. The average career length of an NFL player is less than four years. Marshall Newhouse was an NFL offensive lineman for eleven seasons. The odds of him making it that long, especially the fact that he was a fifth round pick in 2011 in the NFL draft by the Green Bay packers, The fact that he did that is astonishing. And he's not somebody by any stretch of the imagination is a household name, but he lived it because he was smart, and he figured it out how to make it one more year and then another year and then another year and another year. He started his career in 2011 with the Green Bay Packers. He was with that franchise for three seasons. 2014, he spent the year with the Cincinnati Bengals. After that, he spent the next two seasons with the New York Giants. Then he went to the Oakland Raiders in 2017. 2018, he split time between the Buffalo Bills and Carolina Panthers. He was traded midway through the season to Carolina. 2019, he spent the season with the New England Patriots where he blocked for Tom Brady, and he worked under Bill Belichick. And then in 2020, he spent his final season with the Tennessee Titans. He's since gone on to become a broadcaster, or he's done color work for TCU as well as other any number of network games, including this season with the Mountain West Conference. He is one of the smarter guys I've ever met in the NFL and somebody who's very grounded in the reality of what it takes to make it in the league and specifically the pitfalls that come with being a professional athlete. This is a great conversation. Please welcome my guest, mister Marshall Newhouse. Do you know the odds of a fifth round pick lasting eleven NFL seasons are? I know they're not good. I I I don't know what they what they flatten out to, but they're not good. They're terrible. What you did absolutely blows me away. And now that your years removed from it, your last year was the COVID season two thousand and twenty with the Tennessee titans. And now that you're five or six years removed from it, Marshall, played for a lot of teams, played in a lot of playoff games. What are you most proud of about your professional career? Yeah. Obviously, the longevity, but just, you know, it's it's taken being on the other side of it to kind of reflect on that is the the fighting through the adversity. Just there's tons of stories of guys doing this, but and mine is is its own kind of journey. But literally, you know, from fifth round pick to winning a Super Bowl and rookie year, thinking that, you know, I'm still an incredible franchise. But then the, you know, everyone wants to stay with one team. And so not working out with the original franchise, and then kinda being in this wilderness for a while and being typecast as a swing guy, and you're clawing your way back for to show your value. And it took me a lot of different places and fit, and that's why I'm so empathetic now to players and where they get drafted or where they sign and how important it is to be supported and have advocates for you. And you still have to do your job. But it took me, you know, getting to the New England Patriots of all places and starting 10 games for Tom Brady to also kind of, you know, re recognize what it took me to get here. So, yeah, I'm the most proud of sticking through it, fighting through the adversity as cliche as it can become. It's was not easy. It was very lonely, and it was very arduous, and I don't recommend it. But it's my own journey, so I'm proud of that. Wow. Very lonely. I have not heard that word. That's interesting. I'll get into that in a minute. So before we get into that, there is something. The reason I reached out to you, I've known you for a little while. I know you're a really bright guy, and you and I've talked, you know, just casually about certain things. But there's one thing that has sort of organically happened here on social media in the last sixty or ninety days, and I'm seeing all these clips, podcast clips of prominent retired athletes. And they're talking about the money that they made during their careers. Tens, $20.30, $4,100,000,000. And they're saying things like, it's not that much. And as someone who doesn't make anywhere near that tax bracket, I am flabbergastered at the tone deafness of those statements. You lived as a professional athlete for eleven seasons. You saw all of it. Or pardon me for yeah. For eleven years. You saw all of it. So when you hear as a guy who played that long and you were not on the high end of the dollar food chain, you made good money, but you weren't in that stratosphere. But when you see and hear those clips of these guys saying, yeah, it's not $50,000,000, more like 20. And then you got this, this, and this. Marshall, how do you react when you hear those clips? Oh, man. It's it is funny a little bit. You know, I like to find humor in things because there was a moment in time where all people said about athletes was x amount, go broke after this many years. And so I am encouraged that the conversation is now on the other end of wealth preservation and and making, you know, a future that lasts far beyond football with the the money that you did earn. But you're right. It's it's lacking tons of just self awareness and this connection to the every man that I think a lot of players come from, from lower lower middle, middle middle upper class and the people that yeah. They also pay taxes. They also are aware that you don't get to keep everything that you earn. And so, you know, podcasts are good. I'm on one now. I have one of my own. And so we're getting the voice of athletes out. But a lot of them just, I think, have lost forest for the trees from a standpoint of you're talking people who might listen are people who are in student loan debt, credit card debt, mortgage debt. By their own right, you know, giving them agency is fine, but you've lost the plot a little bit when you're trying to convince the average person that because you, on paper, signed a $100,000,000 contract and what effectively ends up you get to keep is close to 50%, that that is something that the normal person can identify with, and it's just not true. So I like that there's more conversations. I think in this NIL era with college sports, kids are getting exposed to the realities of finances and wealth preservation earlier. They're learning that hard lesson sooner. But, yeah, the guy who who signed a max deal is like, well, it got cut in half effectively. That sucks, but it is not too different than or too dissimilar than the average person paying taxes. And so no one wants to hear that you still have four cars or that you bought an extra house, you know, with that money because you could still afford it. You were in a position to never have to work another day in your life. And so it's tone deaf. It's lacking self awareness, but I understand that I'd rather this be the problem we're talking about than guys who are, you know, you know, back to where they came from and and struggling financially is what the story used to be. So when you finished TCU, before you're even, you're going through the pre draft process and hoping you get picked, hoping you might make 6 figures and land on an NFL roster. Marshall, did you have any idea what wealth management was about at that particular junction of your life? Not a ton. I had more than most. My mom was an accountant. She's retired. And so we were I was very, you know, aware of finances. But to that level, no one in my family you know, it's funny. I'm a cousin of Robert Newhouse. I for the Dallas Cowboys. The money that he earned was a, way different, you know, than even than what I was exposed to when I got drafted in my career. And so I had more exposure than most, but I still didn't truly get it. I still didn't understand what withholding meant. And like, you know, that also you're you're paying into a four zero one k and that it's actually the best four zero one k match deal that exists in the NFL, but that it's not money that you're gonna have access to for x amount of year. And so you learn all those things kinda on the fly, and they're you each have your moments of just like, oh, oh, oh, this is what it really means. And so I think other guys are having more cold water realizations about what that looks like. Do you remember receiving your first check? NFL check. I do. I was assigning bonus from the fifth round, from being a fifth round pick. I had never seen that much money in my life. I was a scholarship athlete at TCU, but, you know, we got scholarship checks that immediately went to rent and a little bit for food and clothes, but nothing what they're making now. And it was enough and I was grateful and then but shoot, it was not that much. And so, yeah, I remember the check. I remember thinking, this is kinda cool. I have a physical you know, they make you put in your wiring information, but I wanted a physical check. I got a physical check. I took it to a physical bank, and I deposited it. And that felt incredible. It felt really, really good. And then I was like, well, I haven't made the team yet. This can't be the only thing that I I earn, and I have to make sure that with all the other actions I do. But it was an incredible moment, a realization of my dreams and my parents' hard work and my support system and all that stuff. But I was just the beginning, I was hoping. Did you reward yourself with anything that you went out and bought? No. There wasn't a, like, a big purchase. I'm not a big jewelry guy. I'm not a big flashy things guy. I wanted a truck. Honestly, I didn't even want the truck. I had a used Tahoe that had a 100 and something thousand miles on it that my friends would tell you, when I pulled up to a stop sign in Fort Worth, Texas, chassis would rattle. And I was ready and willing to drive that up to Wisconsin, and my my parents said, no, the hell you're not. You can afford it. Get something that is reliable just so we aren't worried about you driving in the winter. And so the first thing I bought was a truck. So you go to Green Bay as a rookie. And famously, one of the advantages having talked to former packers is that, you know, you're two hours north of Milwaukee and there's not a lot to do up in Green Bay. So you can save a lot of money. I see four or five former packers, they all said the same thing. It's like, you just save money. So when you were in Green Bay, did you see anybody as a rookie or even your second year in the league, Marshall, where you looked around and saw guys blowing through money? Like, what are you doing? Did you see any of those horror stories in real time in front of your own eyes? I've trained myself to not what they call pocket watch and pay attention to what other people are doing too much. But you would notice guys getting, you know, luxury sedans in Wisconsin. And I was just like, that doesn't make sense. Like, it's it's already October. The snow's gonna be here in November. What are you gonna do with that? So I thought that. But you're right. There's not a ton of trouble you can get into in Wisconsin, but guys would have homes that they went back to who I would hear about big houses and big cars and stuff like that. But it wasn't a sense of judgment. I was just like, hey, to each their own. I was just ready and willing not to clench onto it, but to figure out ways to preserve it, make it grow, and then earn more by my play. So a story I heard about you secondhand. I don't know who told me this story. I don't I don't think I had even met you by that point, but this was sort of one of those stories when I heard it about you, Marshall. Was like, man, what a smart thing to do is that you bought a house, which was essentially an investment house here in Fort Worth, a stone throws from TCU's campus. And I think it was a pretty nice house. Nothing gigantic, but but a nice home. Is that accurate? Did did you buy that home as an investment property? Yeah. It was it was I didn't even buy it till my third year. So I I rented, obviously, in Green Bay, and then I I lived with my parents for the first off season and a half in Dallas, Texas. And then eventually got a house close to TCU that I loved and knew well. Starter home, nothing crazy at all, but would allow me to kinda lay my head in the off season. We're only we're only in home for, like, three months out of the year. And then when I was home, that meant I could go up to campus and work out for free. And so, you know, to me, there was a lot of boxes that could be checked by that, not including the, you know, the beneficial mortgage and the accruing of equity in the house long term. I didn't think it was not some venture capital purchase that was gonna x x x in the future, but it was to me a hedge just as I kept playing a place that was very modest that I could lay my head and had friends over and and enjoy my downtime while was in Fort Worth. Marshall, who taught you? Because I've heard about programs that are in place in major college athletic departments. They've got programs in place to teach a kid. That the NFL Players Association has programs to work with players to protect themselves and to protect their their wealth. Did you do those things, or was this trial and error and just your own intuition of how to exercise financial responsibility? It feels like I went to college such a long time ago. It's, I mean, it's been twenty years since I was a freshman at TCU. There were just not programs that existed when I was there. There was one class in the summer with a professional named Bob Aiken about just kind of being a professional athlete, but it was very loose, and there wasn't a whole lot of, like, you know, immediately actionable things. I had the conservatism from a financial standpoint of my parents and just learning how to, you know, not blow it and just be steward the money well. But then it took me being proactive. There were some NFL slash NFL PA programming. I went to, like, a business entrepreneurial program in in Ann Arbor at the school at Michigan, at the business school, the Ross Business School for an off season. I went to another financial kind of program at the University of Miami put on by the NFLPA. So it was more of, you know, seeking knowledge and understanding what I had in front of me and what I could do with it. You know, now that you've got the benefit of hindsight twenty twenty vision when you look back on that, your first and second year out of league and you're with other young players who are making 6 figures, 7 figures. Are they targets? Absolutely. I mean, there's there's no shortage of people who see young men and women who are athletes either collegiately now with the money they're making or who are on a track to be professionals. They are seen as marks. They are seen as marks in very, very subtle ways and seen as marks as very, very like, hey, this is a big lick. If I get them intertwined in this investment scheme, I could empty their bank account. And so the subtle ways are maybe more insidious just because, you know, most average people would probably succumb to them if they were 21 years old or 20 years old with, you know, 6 figures in their bank account. And so with a lot of the fame and glory and finances that come, there's never a shortage of people in America. That is America to its core, people willing to take advantage of those situations. And so, you know, even now with the kind of Wild West that the NIL has been in college, there's levels of representation that don't even have a standard yet, that don't even have a governing body yet for agents and marketing managers and all this other stuff. And so a kid sees a percentage of what it costs to manage them. I put that in quotations or advise them as an agent. And that number came out of the the other person's head, not the player's head. Yes. There are people there who are willing to take advantage of the situation because these kids are even younger than they were had they been drafted. And a lot of them just don't come from money. There's not a just ingrained knowledge of just how to, like, maybe even do the bare minimum just to kinda, like, put the money away and keep the main thing the main thing, which is just play your sport and be really, really good at your sport and maximize that and then let everything else happen. So you said a word at the top to describe your career and your journey in your NFL career that I've never heard before. You said it was lonely. I've never heard that. Marshall, what was lonely about? No. Seriously. I've never heard that. What was lonely? What made it lonely? Yeah. I I could just speak for myself. Once I I got drafted by Green Bay, I was there on a four year contract, was hoping to, you know, play well enough to earn an extension and stay there for as long as possible. I was with Aaron Rodgers. I was with Mike McCarthy. I was like, this is the place I wanna be. I I I got a lot of your ticket in that sense of already having won Super Bowl and in a successful environment. That didn't work out. And then what came and not that I knew it was coming, but what would happen over time was a chain of one and two year contracts moving across the country, meeting entirely new teammates, coaches, staffs. Multiple years where my things were in a pod container traveling on the back of a truck to a new place, getting traded in the middle of the season, getting cut after camp, having to rehab, and signing with a new team on a Wednesday, starting on a Sunday. Like, all of these things, and I didn't have have a partner now, but I did have a partner then. And I don't think I could have, honestly. I I wasn't ready, and it was just such an extreme way to live. And so it was very lonely. There's not many people who, as we talked about at the top of this, have a lot of sympathy for someone who's making Yeah. A good amount of money. And then also, who can also put themselves in my shoes of, yeah, I just I played here for a year, but they the situation is right. I'm gonna go test for agency again. I'm gonna go to a new place across the country and have to earn my place again and convince a coordinator and offensive line coach that I'm valuable again, even though my I played through all these injuries with the other team. This is a new slate. They could care less about what I actually did. They care about kinda your performance on the field only, which I understand. That's lonely. And showing up over and over again was just such a test of will that I've just I've never really talked about. And I I, you know, genuinely, not many people understand. It it just took a lot out of me. I think ultimately, I probably stopped playing sooner than maybe I could have just because it just took too much out of me. Now it was rewarding. I played in a lot of different cool places, lived all over the place. I would have friends and family visit. My family were were awesome. But in the between when they were not visiting, the three hundred and fifty days a year when it was just me and my routine and my rehab from an injury or my workouts in the off season when there's no one else around, that was super, super lonely. And and I don't know. I can't speak for other players, but to me, how I dealt with that was how the only reason I played as long as I did, because there were many times that were very dark that I was like, I don't think I could play anymore. And this is after like year four or five. I was like, I don't know if I wanna do this anymore. And I came out of it and and, you know, glad I did. But it's not easy because I I had high expectations myself. I wanted to play. Was a game I love. But there's times where my body failed me, where I think my, you know, my emotions and my mind were just not in a good place. Or I was doubting, am I even good enough to be here anymore? And so I wish I had found kind of therapy before that. I didn't. It's funny the not funny. It is encouraging the amount of mental health awareness that is going on. And I think people have become a little numb to it, unfortunately, a little cynical of it, unfortunately. It it say I think it saves more than it than it hurts by a long shot. I didn't really have any of that that was very out in the open. And so I dealt with it on my own. And I, again, I I describe it as lonely. It was not fun at times, and it was not easy. And there's not many people who you could talk to about that. So one part to your job specifically, having followed you because of your ties to TCU. Obviously, you know, I follow those guys because they were in my backyard, so to speak. Marshall, sometimes you really got it from fans. So, you know, I I remember seeing that from time to time. Well, Newhouse did this. And one of the hard parts about being a guard or tackle is that they don't notice you when you did your job well. They see you when you don't do your job well. Right? That's one of the unfair parts about that job specifically. Wide receiver. Wide receiver can rip off a bad route. Nobody knows it. He can rip off a route where he just loafs and nails it in because he knows the ball's not coming to him. There's more attention to those guys today than there was fifteen years ago. But if you make a mistake, then everybody sees it. And, you know, now with social media, which has only grown exponentially since you entered the league, how did you deal with that part of the public criticism that comes with being a starting NFL player? I would say not well, especially at the beginning. I feel like I'm a tech forward person. I was really excited about the idea of what Twitter could be. And so I was like, on it. I was on it early at the end of my it is not it was not what it is now for good and bad. But I was on it at the end of my TCU career, but it was just it felt irreverent to me. It was just like, you know, a glimpse into another world. But then it got to the point where I was not there was not enough of it being around. And it's kind of the old saying of don't read the news clippings, and I didn't adhere to that like I should have. But there was not a lot of understanding of like, hey, whether you played well, you think you played well, you think you played poorly, it is not fulfilling to seek that validation online. And so I would see a lot of bad, and it always weighed heavier in my brain than any of the good. But what you're saying is true too, where even when I did play well and my coach gave me a good grade and I got a pat on the back from Aaron Rodgers, a Hall of Fame quarterback, The fans thought I stunk. And I was like, this doesn't match up. And it was affecting kind of my day to day happiness and fulfillment. And I deeply regret being so involved in social media that early on, but I just didn't know any better. But yeah, it was not it was not great. And I think I hope to be a part of better discourse specifically for offensive linemen and specifically for like, you know, how people evaluate them and treat them in the public square. We sign up for a level of scrutiny and criticism fine. But my expertise and my eye for the position, hope helps people frame what they're seeing so that they don't pile on a young kid for no reason like I got piled on and not knowing what it might do to affect his mental, you know, mental state. I still think guys should just be away from it as much as you can, but that's impossible. You never keep everyone away from it. But I do try to add context and be an advocate, basically being the version of an older guy that I didn't have of just like, letting them know what's real and what's not real. And and what, you know, what you did here if they ask me that needs tweaking but is not all bad, and what you did here that could make be done even better. And I just, again, didn't have that. Sought too much validation or too much criticism from people who didn't know me, didn't know anything about me, and, you know, got people who wished me harm on my body, said, I hope you tear this or hope you do this. And I'm just like, not real. It was it was bullshit, and it was the people that don't have a sense of, like, humanity, at least in that moment, whether they're sports betters or whatever. But I didn't know how to, like, just filter it or just avoid it. And so, yeah, that didn't help my my mental health at all. And I deeply regret being exposed to it in that way. And I yeah. If I had to do it all again, I would just ignore it altogether. It affected me more than I'm I really wish I I I it did for sure. Hello. It's Mike Reiner of Your Dark Companion here. Let me ask you. Are you looking for something to fill the long dead air hours of your day? Well, join the Sunset Lounge DFW and your dark companion on patreon.com, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. Replace those sad, slow hours with sports, pop culture, music woven into interesting conversations. So step inside the green door, have a seat at the bar, and get in the groove with those shows and so very much more. You played for the Green Bay packers, Cincinnati Bengals Mhmm. New York Giants, Oakland Raiders, they're in Vegas now, Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, New England Patriots, Tennessee Titans. We hear all the time all sports, but let's for the sake of this discussion, we'll focus on professional football. That's a good organization. It's not a good organization. That's a good organ. It's an excellent organization. We hear this all the time. Play for all these different teams. There is a perception that some of these organizations are good and some are not. What is the difference between a good organization and a bad one? Yeah. I would say a commitment to people, hiring good people, enough people, and the infrastructure surrounding those people. Whether it's programs in house, literal facilities, processes, like literal, you know, standard operating procedures about how when a guy is drafted or signed, this is what he this is who he sees to help him reorient his life. And there's places that more or less do the bare minimum, and there's places that go above and beyond. And it's felt immediately. And I can imagine, as a young player, I was I was alone, single. But a guy with a kid or a wife or family, they need that support immediately so they can get off on the right foot. And you would think Wait a minute. When you're talking about support, I wanna make sure that we know what they're talking about. You're talking about this is where you wanna buy a home. This is a good doctor. Everything from yeah. If your wife's pregnant, here are here's the hotline to make sure you get a OB GYN who's available to you if, you know, that your your your husband's gone. To, yeah, let's help you find a place to rent or buy. Let's help you find a place for your kids to go to school. And also, let's get you oriented in the facility and how we do things as quickly as possible. And there's there's tons of little things that, you know, people don't know about. But, yeah, that's what I mean. And you see that fall off really quickly between the good and the and bad organizations. And I think it has a ripple effect. I think you can't run a multibillion dollar operation. Obviously, the teams combined, it's multibillion dollars, but each team is not worth with the new sale of the Seahawks, each team is not worth another extra billion dollars. And you can't expect that kind of entity to then fall short if they wanna be successful. And there are some just glaring, you know, examples of this. And at the end of the day, there is no one truly holding these owners and them accountable other than themselves. And so the buck stops with them. And so if they decide, hey, we're gonna quote unquote cheap out on this or not give as many resources as this, that is their decision. Usually it's a shortsighted financial decision and not a decision can't come to about people and and helping people be their best and having all these moving pieces be a part of an organization. That would that always wanna lean on, oh, this is a family here. And some places take that pretty seriously. Other places, it's like, this is like the train station with how transactional it all is. And so, you know, I've seen, I think, the spectrum for sure. So you played with a lot of great players. You mentioned one a few minutes ago, and Aaron Rogers who was still playing. There's another one on the list. Is Tom Brady. You blocked for Tom Brady along with your former TCU teammate, Marcus Cannon in 2019. I imagine that had to be a very special season for you. You got to witness Brady and Belichick. When you look at that, and I am sure you have been asked this before, what was the key to the New England Patriots dynasty? Was it Belichick or was it Brady? It was a not an equal combination of the two, but kind of an equilibrium, if if that makes sense. So Yeah. Instead of it being somehow 5050, at any given time, it was 8020, 6040, kind of back and forth. Because Tom elevated every single person around him offensively and defensively with his preparation and his attention to detail and ultimately his performance and moxie and grit. And then Bill Belichick, his defenses and his mind in the way that we prepared and the details that we went into were absolutely why the Patriots won a lot of close games. And so separating the two is very, very, very difficult. I don't think they're always equally responsible for each win. And I don't know how what number you put it at on the entire dynasty, but they needed each other. We saw, since they've departed, Tom has gone on to win another championship. And that to me is very indicative of what the value that he brought to another organization. I think coach Belichick has had less success without Tom, but I don't think that is necessarily indicative of his defensive prowess, more of maybe the personnel and the people and the support that he has around him. I think that has kinda become a little bit more clear. But to each in their own right, the greatest of all time, but absolutely attached at the hip. Just at different times need each other a different amount. Marshall, who is the best player you ever played against? That I ever played against? Someone that came at you and you just whipped. Like, you're like, who this guy is elite? I played I had to block so many just like insanely elite defensive ends and pass rushers. Yeah. Those are the easy answers. I mean, the Peppers, the Watts, the JPPs, the Von Millers, all that stuff, and they're all like, great in their own right. But the guy who I played twice and then got to play with, who, like, just changed everything for you as an offensive player and, like, you know, even for my position was Luke Kieckley. And I got to witness the Luke Kieckley as a as a Panther when I got traded there, and it it just all kinda came and made more sense. A, he's just an incredible stand up guy, but he's just a savant player inside of just an elite athlete. And the stories are true of him doing so much film study that he's calling out plays when you're checking at the line of scrimmage, and it's just like the most there's physical domination and then ways in which you you can demoralize a team on another side of the ball by how you physically beat them up. But the mental part of just being able to pick you apart or know what's coming or any of that, to me, is a whole another level. And I think Lou Kieckley is, like, just on another stratosphere. I think he just got a new broadcasting role. He's gonna crush that. He's a first ball hall of famer, fully deservedly so. Just like, I don't think someone else at that position touches his impact on the field from all different facets. Well, so aside from Luke Keekeley, because like you mentioned, you played with and against him other than Luke Keekeley. Who's the best player you ever played with? Played with. So best as far as like physical traits and like performances and stuff like that, it was Aaron Ross. Just anybody Marshall that that was It's funny was a a team conversation. God, this guy's good. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, and I think it'll I hope he does more media when he retires just from a football standpoint because his mind is incredible. Like, Tom Brady, preparation mind, just determination, all that stuff. He is the greatest because that translated to championships with Bill Belichick. Aaron Rodgers was just the most gifted, and seeing it kind of play out on a day to day basis in practice and walk through and then in the games was like anything I unlike anything I'd ever seen. And I was so young, even looking back retrospectively, I'm like, it's even greater when I, like, see it back on film. When I watch these old replays, and I'm lucky enough to be on the field and trying to do my best to give him a chance to throw the ball or whatever. He's just he was just on such another level because it just was unlike anything we had seen. His throwing motion is so unorthodox and unable to be duplicated, and arm talent, and different angles. And the the control with which he had of the game that there's stories now coming out of receivers. It's like, if you can't rise your level of mental awareness and preparedness, you didn't even get a chance to play with him because of the signals and knowledge of what he had pre snap. And the improvisational stuff after the snap. And to me, it was just, he was the best ever at that specifically. And it's a shame he didn't win more, because I, you know, I think he he he's unmatched as far as the skill part of the playing quarterback. So Marshall, I've never asked a player this question. And I thought if if anybody I could ask, it would be you because you're a really bright guy. And I'm not saying that because you're on you are really genuinely a bright guy. But you played in an era of football when everybody now is aware of the potential consequences of the collisions. You're an offensive lineman, which means you're almost guaranteed of a hit every single play at 37 years old. We're seeing stories now about people who are dealing with the effects of the playing career in spite of efforts to get them off the field if they show concussion symptoms. Do you fear at all going through that as you get older and specifically CTE related symptoms? I don't fear it. I've just, like, gotten to the place of, like, being being ready to kind of adjust if it becomes an issue. And so we all go through, like, atrophy as human bodies. And so that's just to me a different form of atrophy. And to me, it's like it's undefined because I don't know when or if it'll show itself and how it'll show itself. And it may not. Unfortunately, there are guys who, right, it may not. So why why in the world would I give that oxygen in, you know, my brain and my body and all that stuff before it need it needs it? But, yeah, I'm aware for sure. And I had concussions while I was playing, and I was very, you know, aggressive and self advocating when I had a concussion to just let my brain heal. And that to me is a lot of sports and people get concussive moments. It's in football, the going back too soon before your our bodies are incredible. Before your body gets to heal and get back to its neutral state, going and exposing yourself to that same trauma is the part that compounds the damage. And so, yeah, as a lineman, we did a lot of small hits together, and there's probably more linemen with more issues. But, you know, when I thought that things were tough, I I said something. And I get there's pride in in not saying things. But as I as I age and get and get older and I'll continue to be aware of it and looking for symptoms or whatever, it doesn't do me any good to dwell. But I, you know, I understand what I went through and I understand what I put myself through. I did do that of my own volition. To me, that was just a big part of the the settlement and the lawsuit was just like, guys are gonna make the choice still. Like, who are you to to then insult our intelligence to to say that we don't understand what we would be stepping into and then to hide it. I mean, that was what the NFL was accused of, was hiding it for so long, the actual results or the actual risks. And so, you know, I think football is incredible. It's been such a big part of my life since I was four years old. And I hope it continues to be a part of my life. I'm calling games now in college, and I see a new young generation of guys. So I'm excited to see them kind of grow the game and change the game as we hopefully make it safer and make it, you know, more, you know, practical in all those ways. But yeah, there's a reason why I also I wish I'd gotten more involved or was allowed to get more involved in the the union representation to help advocate for more rights and more health benefits. We have a pretty good health benefits package. I think it'd be much better. I think it could address more things for older players who sacrificed in the Gene Upshaw days and who really, you know, literally got nothing for it. So it is just a reality. It'll it'll impact how if I have a son and they wanna play football, the timelines and and the ways in which we approach it, for sure. But at the end of the day, it's it's, I think, a game that's still worthy of being around. It's just who are why would we not be open to adaptation and open to, know, seeing what the newest science is and the newest studies are and the newest protective measures and then at least talking about them. So, yeah. I am aware. It is not I'm doing everything I can for it to not become something that is dwelled on or or front of mind all the time. I'm gonna do my best to take care of my body. And and then, again, I hope to age gracefully. I don't I don't, you know, and whatever I'm called off this this mortal coil, that's what it is. How do you see the media part today? Here is a member of it calling games talking about it as opposed to when you were playing for the Titans, the Bengals or the Packers and you were on the side where everybody was criticizing you or your friends and your teammates. Yeah. I I see it as, you know, when I fully stepped into this, I I got fortunate enough to call some TCU games and as a color commentator. So that's its own role. There's lot of different roles in media, and that's the one I enjoy and I'm gonna continue to grow into. But if other opportunities call, I wanna take advantage of where I'm at. But the thing that I have said to myself was, again, be a better steward of the people you talk about than the people that talked about you. And that doesn't mean soft pedaling. That doesn't mean lack of criticism. That means intentional contextual criticism and elevating how you talk about players and in the situations that you do talk about them. And so I think we can up the standard as a former player who's been in the arena, who's experienced all these things without, you know, pulling punches. And so I'm trying my best to toe that line. It's an ever evolving thing. I'm, you know, learning as I go. But, you know, I was never opposed to criticism as a player. It was just times when it felt like, man, this from people who were professionals. Fans is another thing. People on social media is another thing. From from professionals, it felt like the people that were tasked and literally paid to what I thought be a a certain level of objective were they were spilling so much of their personal feelings into their criticism, especially when that criticism lacked context. And it created a picture and it created a narrative that I was just too naive and too young to ever combat. Not even saying I should have combated it, because like I said earlier, I wish I wasn't even exposed to it. But I am trying to be a better version of that where not even in a self righteous way, but just like bringing my own perspective, understanding that football is what makes football beautiful is that it is imperfect. It is an imperfect game played by imperfect people. And so every single play has something to correct or be talked about or highlighted or lowlighted. And so there's more and more opportunities that I think people don't see to highlight exceptional play that is not necessarily directly adjacent to the football or exceptional thought processes from play callers and quarterbacks and every position that brings more color to the game without it feeling stuffy, without it feeling too overly analytical. I think there's just so much room for that still. And I just wanna continue, as I grow in this, to raise the floor of what people come to expect from former players or anyone calling games or commenting about games. It doesn't do the game any good to for everyone to have a hot take opinion for the sake of attention. Because then at the end of the day, it's like, if everything is if everything you eat is as sweet as like a candy bar, then nothing becomes special anymore. Nothing stands out or is is truly exceptional and worth talking about if everything is a screaming match that has to be the height of concern. So that is, in a long roundabout way, how I approach this. And I think it's fun. It's as close as you can get to the game without coaching or scouting, which I've, you know, thought about. And again, I wanna be still be myself and bring my own vantage point and opinions, but still, you know, have respect for the people that devote their lives to the game. I mean, there's coaches behind the scenes who are away from family and friends and stuff like that. I would do try my best to pay honor to what they're trying to do even in losses and being honest about it. So last thing. You played at TCU, and you were a member of a team that helped change that university. And I don't say that lightly at all. There are certain college athletic teams that change their schools. Duke has had a few. Indiana University this last year winning a national championship. The teams that you were on at TCU were very, very special. But college football has changed in ways that neither you nor I could have ever predicted back in 2008, 2009, 2010. Do you still like college football in spite of all these changes? Well, man, I love it. Do you really I love it even more. And it's that's in spite of the people who I I think don't have its best interests at heart. And so, again, trying to raise my voice to be a better voice of advocacy for the game that I know and love, because it feel yeah. Again, it's it's it's a business. It always has been a business, whether that's a business that has a has an open sign on the front door or a business that has no windows that no one gets to see behind the scenes. It's been a business. And as more of it gets exposed and the kind of the the crassness, the cravenness of the capitalistic nature of it is being exposed, fighting for what makes football, specifically college football, great, to me is a worthy cause. And so what does that look like? That just looks like, you know, I'm covering the Mountain West this year, making as much to do about North Dakota State coming to the FCS or the FBS as possible, and highlighting people in Fargo, highlighting coaches and players who were in a a, quote, GE five conference that people basically don't care about anymore, which is not true if you're if you love college football and that their games that they play and the programs that they're building and part of still matter and just, you know, highlighting that as much as possible along with the play. And then, yeah, my time adjacent to TCU with TCU Radio continuing to advocate for both the school, the conference, and the state of the game as best I can. So I'm a little fish in a big pond, but I think there's it's worthy of the effort. And, you know, hopefully, the the earnestness of the people who care about college football wins out. Marshall, this was great. I did not anticipate stealing an hour of your time, but you were so good. Oh, man. It's awesome. And I I I could go on and on about this. Thank you so much. This was terrific. My pleasure. I figured you'd be good at it. You exceeded all of my very high expectations. What's your first game of the season? Oh man. So this is kind of funny. This is just the business side. I get to call. I get to call the TCU first North Carolina game in Ireland. And not seven days later, I am calling UNLV at Hawaii in Hawaii. So I will be that's not even you can't call that cross country. You can call that cross world. I will be on another Yep. That's a lot of flying. Hemis well, not hemisphere. I'll be on the other Other side of the Other side of the world. Yeah. I'm I'm so Well, you can come up for you get miles for I'm gonna try. I gotta book all my travel for the basically, the whole season here in a little bit. So I hope I'll get some miles. That'll be nice. My first time to Hawaii too. So Are you gonna go in early and try to do something? I will be going in early. I don't know how much time we'll have to do. Usually, the day before. So we'll we'll that'll be our first production. So me and the team are gonna try to get acquainted and and work out all the kinks and all this other stuff. So I hope you get to do something. It's a it's a neat, neat place. Me too. No. Seriously, I I I hope you enjoy that. That's a lot that's a lot of flying. That's there's some Yes. Some big swings there. I'm just thinking I'm just thinking about the jet lag going from one. I don't think there you know, I you know, there's a lot of people who like Kirk Herbstreit or or other people who are you can do jet lag from one coast to the America to another. Don't I know if I could talk to anyone who's understood jet lag from Europe to Hawaii in less than a week. So No. That'll be I might be might be an experiment on that one. Yeah. Right. You'll be a case study. You get to be a lab rat. Marshall, thanks a lot for your time. Thank you so much. If I can ever be of any help, you've got my number, but you've helped me out a lot here today. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Anytime. Alright. See you, Marshall. See you. Yep. This is a Stolen Water Media production.