Love a Flame The John Hummel Case with Judge Jason Charbonnet | Signal 51 Chronicles

This is the signal fifty one chronicles. I'm John Henry. To my left here is, my compadre, retired sergeant of the fourth police department, Jake White. We come to you from an undisclosed location on the West Side Of Fort Worth, Texas. The tenth largest city. You believe that? I believe it, when you go outside of the loop, it's hard to believe when you're inside of it, but yeah. People everywhere. Everywhere. Like ants. Sea of rooftops. Oh yeah. You go north on 35 or south or west for that matter. We come to you from the platform of the Sunset Lounge DFW. Across the table from us is our beautiful friend, Ashley, producer, extraordinaire. Makes this whole thing possible. Where would we be without her? If we wouldn't be here. You know, there's something about, you know, that Nursing or a hangover. Boy, I tell you what. Went to go see Rush last night. Got the best of you. It's a great show. Yeah. Fantastic show. But yeah, it it won. I've seen a lot a lot of nights win with you. Okay, kettle. Okay. But yeah. Well, let you know. Yeah. Fine. Speaking of Ashley, well, you take any vacations this this summer? Me either, too busy. I know, I don't have time for a vacation. How about you, you take any vacations? I have, I have. I've got one more planned, went on one and got one more. Oh, you do? Yes, Yes. Okay. So you just got back from the Adirondacks. I did. Is there anything more bougie than the Adirondacks? Have you been there? Never. No. It's not. I mean, it's not I'm more of a city. I'm more of a New York City type guy. I mean, it's nice. Don't get me wrong. I mean, it's it's beautiful. I'll I'll say that. Yeah. I I wouldn't call it bougie per se. No. Not at all. Okay. Rugged? It's really not. Okay. I mean, it's nice though. Don't get me wrong. It was nice. It was fun. It was I will say this. I have never in July well, a week ago today, in fact, sat by a campfire wearing a sweatshirt. Right. You told me that. That's pretty nice. You got the high fifties at nighttime. They were going through a heat wave up there. It was in, like, the mid eighties. Yeah. Now the the cabins or the camps as they call the lake houses down there, the most of them do not have a they'll have window unit ACs. Where we were at, we had none of that. Oh, yeah. So during the day, it would get pretty hot in there. Humid? Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Probably so up there. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't I mean That Gulf Stream coming around up the Driving there from so we flew into Watertown, New York. I've got a I'll get to this story here in a second. But we fly into Watertown, New York, home of Fort Drum, large military installation. Tenth Mountain Division is based out of Okay. Watertown, New York. And so That's how far from the city? Six hours due north, maybe a little further. I mean, we're almost on the Canadian border. Gotcha. And so we drive, I guess, east, make a quick stop, and then head to the Adirondacks. They are getting some bad weather up there. It's heavy rain, but it's not like storms here where it's lightning, thunder, anything crazy like that. But, man, it was dark, dude. Like, trying to drive in an area that in the mountains, you don't have a clue where you're at. You can see nothing. That was a little nerve wrecking to say So the we get to this camp area that we're staying. It's called White Pine Camps. It was a really, really cool place. It's the hundred year anniversary of Calvin Coolidge's summer visit there. Yeah. My man. Yeah. Yeah. He was there for, I don't know, the month or the entire summer. I don't remember which. But we pull in there and I'm like, Man, this thing is really rustic. They don't even have any lights outside. We can't find our cabin because when you stuck your hand in front of your face, you could not see it. Pitch dark. We circled this little camp area. Stars at night, not big and bright. Not that night, but subsequent nights very much. Alright. And so we finally find the cabin. We go inside. The power's out because of the So it kicks back on. So we had no idea what we were even staying in. We couldn't see, like, the back porch area. We had no idea other than it was a bunch of what appeared to be a bunch of trees behind us. So power comes on. We get the fans, you know, so it cools it off a little bit. And then we woke up that next morning. Unbelievable. We're behind Osgoode Pond. They call it a pond. We would call it a lake here. It was a very good sized pond in my opinion. Phenomenal. Great experience. Whole trip was awesome. Fourth of July, all that stuff. We go out on a lake in Hanawhole Falls, New York, which is by Potsdam. These are all places that probably don't have any meaning to you guys, but a beautiful area. So we leave on Monday. Had a conference in Potsdam one time. You did? No. Potsdam Company. Oh, well, we did go by one thing you will say or one thing you will be familiar with. Great Port, but I don't think it's called Placid. I don't know where you're going with this. Lake Placid. Yeah. So we were ten minutes from Lake Placid. We Go by there? Yeah. Yeah. Go by there. Checked it out. I mean, I didn't go inside. Hockey team. Yeah. Yeah. The eighty hockey team. So that was kinda cool seeing that. Movie too. Yeah. I haven't seen it. Cool. The documentary? Uh-uh. Oh, it's pretty good. It's it's pretty interesting. Or did I? I'm You just came out not like a year ago. You're not even that long. Did see the documentary. Anyway. Now where it gets interesting. So we're there and we are gonna fly out on Monday. So we're flying from Watertown to Philly and then Philly to DFW. That's the usual route we take. So we have about a two hour layover in Philly, which is enough time, but the it you know, it's a fifteen, twenty minute walk from the terminal you fly into to to the terminal you fly out of. Well, our flight keeps getting delayed and delayed and delayed to where now we're gonna miss our connecting flight in Philly. Philly. Yeah. So I go. I'm like, well, I guess we're just gonna have to fly out of Watertown on Tuesday morning. Oh, no. Next flight out of there was Thursday of this past week. Right. That wasn't going to work. So the guy said, well, I can get you out of Syracuse on Wednesday. So Syracuse is about an hour and a half drive. And I said, well, how do you propose we get to Syracuse from here? Like, I could have got the rental car, but then dropped it off. I mean, everything's a compared to the amenities we have here, everything's a little bit more of a hassle. Right? So he says, hey. We have I don't wanna use this part of the story, but you can get x y z rideshare app usually. I said, what do you mean usually? He's like, well, you're just gonna have to get on and see if you can find somebody. So sure enough, we get on the app and get a driver that's gonna take us that hour and a half drive. $172. Alright. Well, okay. It's, you know, whatever. We gotta get there. And so as we're going Usually, emergencies are, like, in the thousands. You gotta bail yourself out. Well, we're getting we're getting close. Like a like a, you know, you need a plumber, it ain't gonna cost you a $172. No. No. Well, yeah. Exactly. So we get into the car, and this guy, he's a pretty wheels off guy. Right? He says we tell him the story. He's like, well, you guys wanna go to Philly? And I'm like, dude, that's, like, seven hours away. He's like, I just got back from Manhattan last night. I don't have a problem doing that. And I'm like, no. I'm not riding to Philadelphia from Upstate New York. Like, zero chance I'm doing that. He's like, well, I mean, I'd take you over to Boston. Boston was, like, seven hours. And I'm like, no. Just we'll get to Syracuse and fly out of there on Wednesday. Well, my wheels start turning. I was like, well, I wonder I mean, he's willing to drive. So I call the airline, they say, hey. We can get you if you can get to Albany, New York by 6AM and get you on a flight, you'll be in DFW by 2PM on Tuesday. All right. So it was past Tuesday. So I phoned down, I'm like, Hey, dude, how far is Albany? He's like, 3.5. I was like, What do think? He's like, Let's go. I said, Okay, let's go. And so I put it into the rideshare app. I'm like, yeah. Like, another $500. Uh-huh. So I was like, at this point, I'm like Oh, yeah. He wants to go. Well, at this point, I'm like, I can get a car cheaper, probably a little more comfortable just because you're in a car with a complete stranger for three and a half hours. Yeah. So I was like, dude, I don't know. I was like, I'll just get a car. He's I was like, it's $500. He's like, you cool doing this under the table? And I was like, you talking my language? What does this mean under the table? What are we talking about? And he's like, two twenty five. I was like, alright. And so I'm like, by the time I get the car, get there. Oh, yeah. I was like, we'll roll the dice. And that it was, riding through the backwoods of Upstate New York with zero cell phone service most of the time with a complete stranger is a bit it it kinda messed with it. Fraud with peril. Yes. You're ringing Rochelle was ringing her hands the entire time. Yeah. Yeah. So we made it. We got there. It was fine. We got to Albany. Did both kids or one kid? We had no kids with No kids. Okay. No. Just the two of us. How'd y'all wrangle that? Yeah. Worked out well. Yeah. And then got to Albany, flew out. Now at Albany, I eat quickly. Don't taste your food? No. We go to What we did? Yeah. It's not it's 09:00 at night. We're in whatever hotel. The only thing there is an Olive Garden. And that was my thought. I'm like, ugh. I'm like, but it's that or whatever is in the hotel, which there was nothing. So I'm like, I don't know the garden it is. So we order some food, and the waitress immediately puts me on blast, man. Because I drink quickly and I eat quickly. So it's constantly like I'm the worst restaurant customer ever because it's like, God, his drink's empty again. His food. What the hell is going on with this guy? So she comes back up to the table. She brings our food. And five minutes later, she comes back to the table, and she doesn't miss a beat. She immediately looks, and she's like, god damn. I said, What? She looks at my wife and she's like, Is this normal? And I'm like, I'm right here. She's like, how did you eat that that fast? And I was like, are you putting me on block? I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, that's normal. What are you crashing out about? Yeah. She was actually super cool, but I thought it was funny how I immediately get Well, you're afraid you're gonna catch a call. That's the reason. There's a whole logic to it. Just get used to it. So in the movie, this sounds like a little like Planes, Trains and Automobiles that you got involved with. It was big time, man. So in the movie, driver you hired is gonna take you all the way back to DFW. Oh, he would have. Yeah, I know it. Oh, I guarantee you. We're gonna make a character out of this guy and then you're gonna stumble around. Oh, there's a character to Michelle's gonna go kill you at some point during this trip because she's like, have you hired to take us back to? Do not take, a, if you can avoid it. It is very much planes, trains and automobiles. Well, I got to spend a little time with Cooper and Bridget. Oh. Your canines. Mark, my canines. That Cooper is just a useless son of a He just really is. He just lays there. He's he's awesome. He's good. He's awesome. That bridge. He's awesome. Bridge is great. Bridget just needs qua or something to calm her down. He text me. He goes, hey, I think we need to look at a Ritalin regimen for Bridgette. I said, yeah, I think we do. She's out of control. I saw a little Cooper and you know, he's he's right up on that couch, you I was just down there. And the next thing he's all rolled over. Here's my tummy right here. Yeah. Hit me here. Yeah. Stolen water media is making a move. After two plus years, it's time to change and keep up with our growth. You can continue to view all eight of our podcasts on our Patreon pages, but now you can get all episodes at stolenwatermedia.com. That's right. All Stolen Water Media productions, Your Dark Companion, Just Wondering with Norm Hitskas, Al Maximo, Beer thirty Sports O'clock, The Clubhouse Podcast, Ingle Angle, Signal 51 Chronicles, and Sunset Soccer Club are all available on our website. It is a developing story, but you can begin consuming all of our content now at stolenwatermedia.com. Continue to find all audio wherever you find your favorite podcasts and some places you've never heard of. And of course, we are available on YouTube. You all continue to support us in our success. We feel and appreciate the love. As always, please rate us and leave a review wherever you follow us. Share us on social media and recommend us to your family and friends. Thank you. Alright. Let's do a little blotter. What do you say? Little blotter? Little blotter blotter. Let's go to Arizona. Okay. In a plot straight out of an action movie, a 23 year old man fresh out of prison decided the best way to get home was hijacking a semi truck loaded with 10 shiny Chevrolet Corvettes. Okay. Valued at over 1,250,000. According to authorities, the man befriended the driver at a truck stop near Tucson, gained his trust, then forcibly objected him from the cab before speeding off with the luxury haul. When deputies caught up, the man ignored lights and sirens, driving so recklessly that other vehicles had to pull over. Eventually, he stopped and was arrested on multiple felony charges, including robbery and theft of 11 vehicles. It's reported that the Corvettes, however, went unharmed k. And were safely returned to the rightful owner. Now, is this an incident of a guy getting out of prison and decides he can't survive outside of prison, so I'll just go back? Charlie Manson was that way. Yeah. I mean, it seems logical to have that thought. Yes. What other explanation is there? Stupidity? I mean, yes. Good point. Head down to Florida. Was that an eye roll with Florida? Are you beefing with Florida? Oh, there's always you're beefing with Oklahoma. Oh, no. That was me. Florida. Yeah. Well, Florida's got some wheels off folks. And I don't know how. You always hear about the Florida man. It's always a Florida man. A Florida man did this or did that or was wanted in this case or whatever. They're all Florida's has a reputation for being wheels off. Okay. Alright. I did not know this. It's kinda it's deep south, but isn't, but it's backwoods and is. Yeah. I'm with you. I mean well, this is in a town called Riverview, Florida. In a scene worthy of a social media stunt gone wrong, a man scaled a cellular tower to livestream his high altitude antics. Deputies from the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office, guided by the aviation unit, safely talked the daredevil down with video showing him descending the tower and meeting law enforcement on solid ground. When asked by deputy if he really made it to the top, the man nonchalantly confirmed earning a that's pretty crazy in response. While the man was taken into custody without incident, the sheriff's office hasn't said what charges he's facing. Though climbing for clout probably wasn't worth the address, the arrest, pardon me. Okay. Did you all see the stunt the Empire State Building? Yes. Saw that. Is that crazy or what? That's some like book boyfriend stuff right there. But I don't recommend Book boyfriend? What? Book boyfriend. What is that? I'll explain that. I'll explain after this while we're cleaning up. It's it's guys written by women who are amazing because they're written by women. Oh, okay. There you go. Gotcha. Yeah. So is that how you proposed? No. No. Don't. I'm a I'm a major fear of heights. Oh my god. Major fear of heights too. Especially when you're out in the like, there's no enclosure. Oh, yeah. No way. Forget that. You mean y'all aren't willing to climb to new heights to tell a woman that you love her? Nope. Nope. Like No. Your wife deserves better, Jake. Clearly. Now, I'm not doing that. Now how about the new Tormenta roller coaster at Six Flags? I'm good. I have not heard of this. Google that right quick. My niece really loves Six Flags, y'all. I haven't been in Like likes to ride the big rides, so she's too small to ride on. What's it called? Tormenta. I I haven't been to I've been to Six Flags once in forty years. Is it open? Yeah. It opens Friday. Mhmm. I don't know. I mean, the 309 feet above the ground I mean, the roller coaster, that doesn't I don't that doesn't I don't have a fear of that. Oh, you're okay with roller coaster? Yeah. I'm okay with that because the odds of something happening are pretty slim. They did have one Somebody fell off the shockwave. Texas Giant. Forty years ago, recently. Texas Giant. Like, ten years ago. Yeah. Yeah. See? There you go. No. They had one I think it was at Six Flags where the it got like, recently, it got stuck and they had to evacuate. Vaguely recall this. I would probably freak the hell out. Oh my god. Yeah. You wanna oh, yeah. I'm not gonna lie, dude. Yeah. F that as they say. Nope. In the parlance of our day. F that. F that's for sure. Anyway, good job Florida man. Florida man. But I'm out. Yeah, no. All right, let's get to what we're talking about today. Let's do it. And this we have a guest today, a gentleman by the name of Jason Charbonnet. Yeah. So we did if you remember the Kennen Dale fire case, the Hummel case Can't forget it. Last month. Yeah. True to form, we often, behind the scenes, we kinda rush through this stuff. Mhmm. We get usually get yelled at via text message by Ashley, like, hey, you're recording on Sunday. Right. And this could be a Monday, six days prior, and we'll have something Try to kill that too, fucking You do. No. This is nothing to do with It's flying by the seat of our pants. That's what that's what we ought to call this podcast, flying by the seat of our pants. We usually have something rough scripted, or maybe two or three at a time. And then it becomes, okay, which one can we get done in the next six days? Well, was this one. Because we're also efficiency engineers, you know? We are efficiency engineers, and we do have day jobs. That's correct. Right? Yeah. So we get this one scripted out, ready to go. It was a good one, you did a good job on that. It was good and we released it and this guy that I'm about to introduce is like, dude, you do you know I was the lead investigator on that. Right? And I was like, yeah. I do know that. I was like, if you only had any idea of, like, this hurry up game that we play, it's hard. Yeah. You know, maybe we'll get better at planning in 2027. I don't know. I'm I'm about to turn 46 and You you are? Yeah. Or 56. Yeah. Anyway. Or you could just call the guy and say, hey. Can you just give me some We could have. This and then We could have. I mean, you know, from an undisclosed location on the West Side Of Fort Worth. Yeah. So it was so For an undisclosed location on the It was so far of a drive for this. It it was. I mean It was. Complete inconvenience. So, okay. So, I'm gonna do a little intro here. So, we got Jason Chardonnay, retired sergeant from Kennandale Police Department. Is there enough room for two retired sergeants in the in the same room? I mean Oh, yeah. Yeah. Look at us, dude. We're like the yeah. I mean So presently, Jason is the justice of the peace for Precinct 6 Yeah. Right here in Tarrant County. Yeah. An elected official. An elected official. So he's actually the honorable. The honorable judge. That's right. Jason Charbonneau. That's right. So Jason, for reaching out to us. Thanks for showing up and actually doing this. I think we're gonna get some inside skinny on this case. Yeah. That we covered that I thought was pretty fascinating. So thanks for being here and we'll And the reason he's got insider remains is because he's the lead detective on that case. He was. So a little background on this case, just kind of a quick overview. We're looking at 12/17/2009, a house off of Little School Road in Kennandale, kind of right there on the border of Arlington or close close to Arlington and Kennandale. Police respond to a fire inside our three bodies. They have Well, the fire department responded to the fire. The fire department as well. But I've got I've got officer Worthy who was part of the part of the case, and that's what I was looking at. So inside, we've got the body of 34 year old Joy Hummel, their her five year old daughter, Jody, and her 57 year old father, Clyde Bedford. The at some point, probably relatively shortly after the fire, you you were detective in Kennandale at the time. Give us a real quick, give us an idea of the size of Kennandale, the city, and the department. So the city's probably 10,000, about 10 square miles. And the department, I think at the time we had just under 30 officers. I don't know what it's at now because it's growing by leaps and bounds over there. Like everything Yeah, was roughly that size. We had three in the detective's office at the time and we handled everything. And so it didn't matter what the case was. If it fell into your queue, it was yours. And, every once in a while you would have a another officer, you know, or another detective help you out if if it was, you know, you needed it, but it was your baby to rock. So you took it all the way to the district attorney's office. So like on this one with three detectives, do you guys all show up on something as significant as this or is there a on call schedule? There was on call, which I happened to be. And yes, the answer is yes. And we were lucky enough that we had, after we figured out what we had, we we had, the sheriff's office, asked if they we needed help, and then, the DA's office asked if we needed help. We accepted help from both and ATF reached out and they were on scene with me or with us most of the time and it was a collaborative effort to probably solve and bring to justice one of the worst cases that this county has ever seen. Right. Yeah, it was definitely a high profile event when when that happened. Do you remember about what time you showed up out there? I don't remember exactly what time I showed up. I remember I got the call and worthy, Josh Worthy called me and he says, we have a fire that's going on. I said, well, you need to call the fire department. It was the middle of it. Typically what you do. He said He buys, by the way. He goes, We think we have some people that didn't make it out. And I said, Is the fire still burning? And he goes, Yes. I said, Call me when the fire is out, because I can't go in there. You have no expertise. I have nothing In firefighting. Nothing to do with that, you know? And I I guess, we didn't know any they weren't they didn't know much at the time, so I can remember hanging the phone up and I'd been an officer for a long time by then and had hundreds and hundreds of call outs. And my wife, I was getting ready to lay back down, and my wife says, What's going on? And I tell her, she goes, get out of bed and go. I was like, okay, fine. Tired of your snoring, probably. Yeah, probably so. And if you know my wife, which Jake does, she used some colorful language whenever she said it. So I got up and I showed up there. Fire was still completely in in involved. It was it was the whole entire house was aflame. And I immediately got out, just stopped in the middle of Sublet Road. It it was a when back then, it was a t intersection, So Sublet teed into dead ended into Little School Road at that and then it jogged over back to Sublet and which has all been completely refigured now over there. But so I just stopped in the middle of Sublet Road and took out my camera and just started firing pictures. Just as fast as the camera would go, as fast as and I was just I would run to either side of it just to try to get photographs of of anything basically at that point because you couldn't even get it was so big. The fire was so big that you couldn't get within a 100 yards of it, it felt like. It was just so hot. And there was fire apparatuses everywhere. Mansfield, Fort Worth, Kennadale, everything was there. And it was pretty chaotic for a long time because they were trying to keep it from spreading out to other buildings that were nearby because it was just so big. And and, I didn't bring the photographs, of course, but, the the flames in it were just they were huge. Huge. So initially, you think it's a house fire? I mean, there's no information about anything afoul at this point. Not that we had any indication of. So fire gets put out and the firefighters discover the three bodies inside the house? They discovered two. They didn't know Jody, the small child. They didn't know due to the amount of fire damage that had taken place, whether it was a pet or if it was a human. Oh wow, okay. So, and we didn't know that for, it was quite a little while. We found out that day, but it was quite a while. It was completely unrecognizable. The neighbors, I'm sure, were out. Yeah. But the way this house is situated, it faced Sublett Road on Little Road, and so Harrison Drive was on the left of it, but it was quite a ways away. And so, I guess due more to the time of night or morning, that it was far enough away where people weren't congregating around it. So there was enough fire involvement around it, and we had they had it surrounded pretty well to keep fire from extending over into any other buildings that were that were close to. I was wondering if if if, you know, neighbors came out and said knew who this family was, knew knew. No, not not at not at that point. They didn't. We really didn't need to. It Right. There was nothing. Well, from from what ended up happening, it showed up. Right. So We didn't need to. The fire's out. There's obviously the body of the the wife and the the father-in-law or her dad. You don't know about the five year old daughter. When was it so what initially, you guys were just looking at this as a a fire who, you know, who knows what could have been the origin. When was it where you guys started realizing there might be something else going on here besides just the house fire? Well, was more twofold. We had John that showed up. He just showed up on scene. And when we started talking to him on scene, very little emotion, if any, very little real concern that you would expect out of a normal person whose family maybe have completely perished. After we got done talking with John on the scene and took him to they took him asked him to go to the police department, which he went voluntarily, we stepped in the house. And we did just a cursory search of the area just to make sure that, what just to see if what we had. And we didn't have search warrant or anything at the time. We were more just trying to figure out did we even have a crime that we need a search warrant for, or is this just a a accidental fire? And we figured out that there was a lot of fire here, a lot of fire here, and a lot of fire here, but there was no fire in the middle of it. So we pretty much backed out of it at that point once we figured out that we've got and with no extension that we could see it at all anywhere. And it was plain to see that there was no extension because the attic was burned through and you could see that there was nothing. You could see straight through, through the through the attic roofline. And so we backed out at that point and then we knew we had something that was a little bit bigger than and of course, we went through after we got all the search warrants and stuff. We went through to make sure that we checked all the electrical. We checked all of that stuff to make sure that we didn't have still an accidental fire that that spread through the walls somehow, eliminating everything. So you had some some training, some experience, and then you also had ATL special agent steal with you to kind of make that determination. It looks like there's at least three different spots. I don't know anything the first thing about arson. I mean, it just is it pretty obvious? You know what you're looking for, I suppose. If you if you know what you're looking for, it can be. But you you the first rule is you've gotta find the point of origin first. Mhmm. And that was what was confusing both of us is it just when we walked in to the first bedroom, we walked in where Clyde was, and it was was completely burned out. And so we it was really hard to even find a point of origin at all in there. And we never actually did. We found out later why we didn't. And then when we moved to the other portions of the house, there's no point, there's no fire at all. There's smoke damage in the middle. And then there's no point of origin in any of these other rooms. So you're trying to find the point of origin by the charring, the alligatoring on the walls, all that kind of stuff. You're trying to figure out where a point of origin was. Usually it will go down to a specific area, and it just it just wasn't. Got it. So Hummel shows up on scene, John Hummel. And in the what we looked at was, I guess he meets with captain Daryl Hole who says, hey. Let's go back to, the sector or station, whatever you guys call it, and we wanna get some more of the stories. And then did you guys interview him initially, did you guys interview him or just have him do a quick written statement? So I Eric Carlson and I, he was my sergeant at the time and he happens to now be the chief police there. He and I when we were talking and we talked, we heard what John was saying and and Daryl was coming to us saying, look, this is what he's telling me. We don't really have a lot of emotion out of this guy. This is what's what we're what we think might be going on. And and and he didn't say that he thought that maybe he's the one that set the fire or anything. He's just like, this guy's not showing any emotion. I said, well, he is the next the the he lives there. He is the next of kin. See if he's willing to go to the police department with you. Not under arrest, anything like that. I said, get him to write down in a statement everything that has happened tonight. And my thought process was I want to try to nail him down to a specific story and that's it. And then we'll go from there. And so because we knew something was wrong and we didn't know for sure if he was involved. He wasn't showing any of the outward emotions that that would lead you to believe that he's involved or that that he not that he was not involved, but the that the outward emotion that his family had perished, I guess, is a better way to put it. Lost your house and belongings and everything else. Yes. And your family. Right. So in that, I I believe so in the statement that he wrote, the initial statement, he said, quote, so I left my house. I so I left my home around 9PM. I drove to Joshua to visit a friend, but he was not home. I drove around for a while to wait and see if he would come home, but he didn't. I stopped and got gas, drove around some more, then I begin to visit Walmarts to price things for Christmas. I came home a little after 5AM and found it burned down, and firemen and police were still there. Do you remember reading that? Yeah. What was your thoughts when because I'm assuming you're probably still at the scene. You, at some point, go back to the station. You read the statement. You're taking it all in while you're there, right? I mean, you're like, okay, something's afoul. This guy's acting a little abnormal, or probably, frankly, a lot of abnormal, zero emotion or minimal emotion, and then you read this statement, right? I mean, like with any investigation, I mean, you're gonna say, what's normal, Right? That's not going to be something that most a normal person is gonna write knowing, holy crap, my wife, kid, father-in-law, how all gone. Unborn child? Unborn child. And we we'll get to that. I forgot about that, all gone. Yeah. It made up, I think you said four lines, that statement. Yeah, I think it was a total of four lines that was on this piece of paper. And it was So you guys when was it where you realized, okay, we've got to we we now need to interrogate this guy. What point did you guys make that decision? I don't Alan, I don't think that there was a very specific time that that started to take place. We just started with an interview Okay. Of him. And as the interview progressed and what we were seeing, we started to realize this is turning now into This was non custodial. And so, we he's he's we never read him his Miranda rights while we were doing this. He was free to go. We made that very obvious to him. If he needed and he asked to go smoke cigarettes and stuff, we took him out into what we have what they call the Sally Port where they you bring your car in, they lower the gate, you take somebody to jail. So, we and it was freezing outside and so, we're like, hey, you know, you want to go into the Sally Port and smoke or we can go outside, whichever one you want. And he chose to go into the Sally Port and smoke. And if you need to use the bathroom, he walked down the hall, you know. Somebody escorted him because it's a secure area, but there was nothing that indicated that would have indicated that he's under arrest. And so which obvious at the end because he left the police department that day. It started with whenever we were talking to him, you could see that there was still no emotion with him. And so I still went, interviewed him. I was in the room. Still interviews him, and he's talking to him, and he's not really making any sense because he's saying he's going to and we were relying on his statement a lot because he said he he's going to these Walmart, different Walmarts to, price things. Well, that threw off red flags for us right there because the price at every Walmart is exactly the same. Mhmm. And he couldn't remember the friend's name out in Joshua. And at that point, we were like, Well, is he out buying illegal stuff? Then he just knows where this person lives and that's where he goes to get it. Is he buying drugs or what's he doing? And the fact that he didn't even know the guy's name, you know, tipped us off. And so we got to thinking, well, I think this guy just wanted to be seen on camera somewhere. Why is he going to all these different places? And he couldn't produce any receipts or anything like that. And so we ended up he was trying to stick with this story the whole time. Understand that we still didn't know a whole lot about the scene. And so we're now pretty much in a interview interrogation deal when we don't have all the evidence from the scene yet and and it happens a lot like that in police work that before the scenes even processed, you're now talking to somebody because time is of the essence. You're trying to get these people nailed down to an exact story. How about what what how much time what time frame are we talking about from when you got there early in the morning to? Probably within four hours of me getting there to the scene. So this is all happening in very rapid succession, which it does a lot in these type of situations. So we're going at him with anything we can. We're trying to play to his emotions. We're trying to get him to give us some we hit him with, This doesn't make any sense. You're going here. You're going there. The prices at all the Walmart are the same. It just doesn't make any sense. And we went at him for probably two and a half hours, three hours and where it where I think, I always thought, where I knew that something was he was involved in some way is when Carlson went in and spoke with him. So Steve and I backed out, and sometimes in interview interrogation, you can send in another investigator that he doesn't know, and he doesn't it's a fresh set of eyes, a fresh set of line of questioning. And so it was if you ever get a chance to see the interview tape, Carlson gets Carlson is a he's a big guy, my size. We're bigger guys. And so he pulls up the chair right up in front of him. They're facing each other. And John is down with his head this in his hands. And Carlson gets right up to him, almost forehead to forehead with him. And this is just the way that Carlson interviewed sometimes when it came to trying to elicit some confessions. And John starts wailing. I mean, just everywhere. Carlson's like, just let it out, man. Just let it out. Just just, you know, trying to get him to to to to let it out, whatever it is. And we're sitting there watching it on the screen going, dude, I don't think he's involved. Until he picks his head up. No tears. No snot. Face is not even red. Here we go. Oh boy. We know. Something's up. And so that's that's was the progression of the Kennadale interview. And eventually, when he went to use the restroom, if I remember this right, I think I'm correct in this. He went to use the restroom and Steele walked down the hall with him Steele noticed something on his pants. Now, was dressed in all black. He had on a black pants, black shoes, a T shirt with something some kind of a I don't know. Band maybe? Anime or something or something on it. Gotcha. And and then he had on like a a shirt, a black shirt over the top of that that was unbuttoned and a and a black hat. And so and we came to find out that's pretty much his normal attire. But Steele noticed something, thank God. He noticed something that was like shiniest looking on his pants that didn't fit like the normal. So he he said it looked kind of maroon ish on his pants, but they're black pants. Right. And it's like, you know, probably like six in the morning at this time. And we're trying and and of course, we're all tired because we've been up now for forever. And so he comes back and he tells me and and out of an abundance of caution, and it wasn't necessary to do, I read him as Miranda rights. Didn't need to. He was free to go, but we wanted his clothes. And so we told him, it's like, you know, you're you're not under arrest or anything but we believe we have evidence of some sort on your clothes. So, we're going to take your clothes from you and he was like, okay. So Carlson had a black Iron Maiden t shirt in his office. So we found some pants somewhere, and basically I think Carlson had the pants, and we gave him an old set of uniform pants that we had. He had an Iron Maiden t shirt, and we gave him some old socks and I think some slippers that you wear in jail, and that's how we got his clothes from him. It wasn't like we were trying to get him to feel like he was under arrest. We're just taking this. We're not giving you anything that's jail associated. Here you go. Now he could've now if he'd have said no, then you would've needed a warrant. Yeah. We would've held him at that point to to get the search warrant just for the clothes if he wasn't going to give them to us. We would have had the right to just think about it as a house. You're going to clear the whole house out and everybody's going to stay outside since we don't have permission to search it, and then we're gonna get a warrant and let everybody and then we're gonna search it, and then you can go back in. So it's basically you're holding for evidence at that point. Nobody's under arrest, but if you wanna give us a close, fine. If not, we're going get a warrant. Yeah. That's kind of the But but he he wasn't free to leave necessarily at that point. If if he had said no. If he'd have said no. I'm out of here. If he if he would have said no, we would have had to go a different route. How about that? Okay. All right, that's it for us for today. Check us out on the social, oh, go ahead, sorry. Yeah, yeah, well, thank the judge again for joining us. You're welcome. Gave us some good stuff. Thanks for having me. And yes, check us out, subscribe, and all that stuff on the socials. You can find us at Signal fifty one Chronicles, Sunset Lounge DFW, else. Anywhere else. Thank you guys. Thanks. Come back next week to the Signal 51 Chronicles as Jason Chardonnay breaks down the last bit of the love a flame in Kennadaw case of John Hummel. This is a Stolen Water Media production.